Reasons for carrying a knife (in the UK).......

[Martyn]

What does concern me greatly is all the talk of amnesties and knife bans. The message is consistently given out that the carrying of any knife is illegal, which isn't the case. I'm worried that if I take my pocket knife out to perform a task, Joe Public will think I'm doing something illegal.

Worse than that, a knife amnesty lets the government off the hook. It demonises the knife and blames the knife and lets the government focus on the knife which totally misses the problem.

But we are getting far too far into the realms of politics here, so keep it to direct discussion regarding points of law guys.

Thanks.
Martyn.

 

[nobby]

I make my living demonstrating and talking about the lives of our ancestors to schools and in museums all over Britain and on the continent too. At any time I may have one or two fixed blade knives, a scramseax (about the size of a goluk), two axes, two or three swords and a couple of spears in the van.

Add to this a SAK in my pocket and if I am stopped I look like a mobile armoury.

Other than the SAK do any of these have an edge?
We use a 'Viking' - Bjarni of the Longship trading Company - to teach the children and he brings a lot of weapons, but none of them have an edge. They are facsimiles of swords, spears and axes incapable of causing harm except as bludgeons. If they had edges he wouldn't be in our school, or any other.
I can't believe that the police would have a problem with that.

 

[Mantic]

Hey Martyn. Slightly OT but when is a knife no longer a knife? I mean, does it have to have a cutting edge to be a knife, or is the shape of the thing important. What if you have a piece of metal shaped to look like a knife but it hasn't been ground / sharpened? Is a chisel considered to be a knife for example?

It sounds daft but I'm wondering what the definition of a knife is (as far as the law stands).

Cheers m8.

 

[Wayland]

Other than the SAK do any of these have an edge?
We use a 'Viking' - Bjarni of the Longship trading Company - to teach the children and he brings a lot of weapons, but none of them have an edge. They are facsimiles of swords, spears and axes incapable of causing harm except as bludgeons. If they had edges he wouldn't be in our school, or any other.
I can't believe that the police would have a problem with that.

Most of my weapons are indeed blunted for safety but not as blunt as the typical blades used by other presenters like Bjarni. It sounds like he is using the type of blades that are made for use in re-enactment battles. Such equipment is readily available but tends to resemble iron bars rather than real swords.

The problem with such re-enactment blades are they are much heavier than real blades ever were which leads to a completely false impression of the weapons actually used in the period.

I am a living historian and experimental archaeologist rather than a re-enactor and there is quite a difference.

The blades I use are what are sometimes termed "museum sharp". Indeed I have produced such swords for Museums such as the Roskilde Ship Museum in Denmark and Lofotr in Norway. They are of exactly correct weight and profile but lack the final sharpened edge.

To all intents and purposes they look just as they should do.

The blades sheathed on my belt are real and sharp, as they are used for various jobs during my presentations, but they are never allowed into the hands of pupils.

All my other "replicas" are accurate to the last degree, even having been made in the material and same manner as the original finds. To do anything otherwise would be as bad as taking a horned helmet in to a school.

I have heard many good things about Bjarni's talks, but I should point out that unlike many other presenters, weapons make up a mere ten minutes of my day long presentation. The violent aspects of Vikings are given very little priority compared to their daily life as sailors, farmers, traders and craftsmen.

What time is given to such matters, is mostly aimed at showing what a grisly, horrific matter warfare of that time actually was. This is the approach that has been very much appreciated by many of the teachers in schools that book me year after year and has been positively commented upon by various Ofsted inspectors too.

I’m sorry if this post is a little long and off topic but I take what I do very seriously and believe accuracy to be most important. If I tell the children this is how something was done, it is because I have done it myself and know it is correct. In my opinion this can only be achieved with faithful reproductions of their equipment.

I'll climb off my soapbox now......

 

[Martyn]

Hey Martyn. Slightly OT but when is a knife no longer a knife? I mean, does it have to have a cutting edge to be a knife, or is the shape of the thing important. What if you have a piece of metal shaped to look like a knife but it hasn't been ground / sharpened? Is a chisel considered to be a knife for example?

It sounds daft but I'm wondering what the definition of a knife is (as far as the law stands).

Cheers m8.

That's easy. The law defines a knife as "a bladed or sharply pointed object".

 

[Mantic]

That's easy. The law defines a knife as "a bladed or sharply pointed object".

Cheers Martyn. I suppose pencils count then?!?!? Definitions are such tricky beasts....

 

[Wayland]

I mentioned the pencil /knife definition to a head teacher in conversation once, it could also include compasses, drawing pins, and scissors.

He looked very bemused....

 

[Neiltoo]

That's just a rant nieltoo. Every country in the world has laws and most of em are far more restrictive that ours - unless you have money, because they are mostly so corrupt you can buy your way out of anything. If you dont believe me, go set up house in El Salvador. Yes you have to think about what you do, because you live in a country that is governed by laws. If one stops you doing what you want to do, take it up with your MP.

Raging against the machine on BcUK doesnt do anything except get otherwise excellent threads locked.

Be warned.

I didnt realise that some opinions are more important than others here.

I was simply agreeing with what someone else had already said.

I have lived and worked in many different countries on 4 continents. I have yet to find a country that has more draconian laws governing the outdoors and the use there of than the UK.

I stated my opinion - if it is not welcome here please let me know.

 

[Neiltoo]

Every country in the world has laws and most of em are far more restrictive that ours -

As generalisations go this is quite outstanding

 

[Mantic]

I didnt realise that some opinions are more important than others here.

I was simply agreeing with what someone else had already said.

I have lived and worked in many different countries on 4 continents. I have yet to find a country that has more draconian laws governing the outdoors and the use there of than the UK.

I stated my opinion - if it is not welcome here please let me know.

No one was suggesting that your opinion was unwanted and there's really no point in trying to badger Martyn.

Your post was a rant - most of us have them now and again but sometimes they get threads locked and you have to admit that this topic is delicate enough as it is.

 

[Neiltoo]

No one was suggesting that your opinion was unwanted and there's really no point in trying to badger Martyn.

Your post was a rant - most of us have them now and again but sometimes they get threads locked and you have to admit that this topic is delicate enough as it is.

Im sorry - im not trying to badger anyone. I was simply reacting to what I thought was unreasonable. I wont post in this thread again.

Just so Im clear, if I post an opinion that is generally disagreed with then thats a rant?

In my defence, look up totalitarianism in the dictionary, do a little research on the election system in N. Ireland , where I live, and tell me what I said in my post that wasnt factual. I was, however, originaly talking about the law of the land as it relates to the countryside and the carrying of knives.

While you are at it, look up rant in the dictionary as well.

 

[Wayland]

OK guys calm down a bit.

No one around here is the enemy....

 

[Jack Tar]

OK, I've been following this thread with great interest, and wondered if it may be worth being more pro-active about this thorny issue.

Could it be worth going along to your local Police Station to see if it's something you could discuss with a Police Officer, particularly in light of this current anti-knife climate?

Working WITH the Police, rather than being quiet about it, worrying about when/if you get your collar felt.

Hopefully this could achieve several things.
It would set you straight on what the local Police view is.(will they be cracking down on ALL people carrying knives?...etc)
I imagine they would be able to give excellent advice on what you can carry and when.
It would raise awareness with the Police that there are genuine/responsible people out there who want to carry a knife in a responsible manner.

At the end of the day, we are not criminals. We just want to practice our hobby within the law, and I'm sure the Police would support that.

My local Police Station is just down the road from me, and I've been chewing on the idea of popping down there since this thread started, as I completely sympathise with Jon, and know that my mind would go blank, or I'd get tongue-tied if stopped and questioned why I was carrying a knife.

2 years at Her Majesties pleasure seems a bit steep for getting my words muddled!

 

[Neiltoo]

At the end of the day, we are not criminals. We just want to practice our hobby within the law, and I'm sure the Police would support that.

I understand where you are coming from but the target pistol shooting fraternity probably said something similar.

 

[Mantic]

Thank you JackT for getting the thread back on topic

Well it sounds like a reasonable idea but there are a few things to consider first.

1. Many PCs are not fully conversant in the various laws we are talking about - I don't know what the percentage is but I would take a guess that it's higher than we would like.

2. A lot of forces are intent on ridding the streets of any bladed tool - regardless of whether it's legal or not. A thread started up on British Blades not so long ago concerning a poster campaign initiated by the Police in Hull (if I remember correctly). It went something along the lines of "Carrying a knife in a public place is illegal". Now, the intent of the poster was (I hope) not to threaten those of us who carry a knife legally, but as a deterrent for those who do so illegally. However, it is also a remarkable piece of misinformation - almost as bad as a sign saying "Driving faster than 30MPH is illegal" (in some cases it is, but in others not). I believe that this kind of campaign hurts our cause by misinforming the public.

3. The Police don't make law, they enforce it.

My point is this - be prepared that the response you get may not be entirely helpful. Saying that, I think that it might be helpful to contact the Police, show them a photo of your knife (just to be on the safe side ) and explain what you intend to use it for (I presume bushcraft).

At the very least they might put your mind at rest and if you ever were questioned in future, it might go to illustrate that you are a reasonable citizen intent on following your hobby within the constraints of the law.

 

[running bare]

Knives arent the problem and even quite young kids are perfectly capable of owning them responibly, providing they live in a society that teaches them responsibility. They need to be in a world that disciplines them. We dont need a knife amnesty, we need the cane.


totally agree martyn. too little discipline, too much tv,video nasties,computer games
and drugs too easily acquired! as for asbo's latest fashion statement is for the lil' tards to roll the trouser leg up and walk around showing it off like a medal!!!

on a lighter note whats the english national dress???? burberry baseball cap,kappa tracksuit and british knights trainers

 

[Jack Tar]

Good points Mantic, and I'd just like to expand on one of them:

"3. The Police don't make law, they enforce it."

Precisely my point.
I'd much rather sort out any problems with the enforcers of the law, than for it to get to the courts!

Perhaps I'm being a little naive, but as you say, at least I'd be showing my intentions of being a good little "bushcrafty" citizen.

 

[JonnyP]

OK, I've been following this thread with great interest, and wondered if it may be worth being more pro-active about this thorny issue.

Could it be worth going along to your local Police Station to see if it's something you could discuss with a Police Officer, particularly in light of this current anti-knife climate?

Working WITH the Police, rather than being quiet about it, worrying about when/if you get your collar felt.

Hopefully this could achieve several things.
It would set you straight on what the local Police view is.(will they be cracking down on ALL people carrying knives?...etc)
I imagine they would be able to give excellent advice on what you can carry and when.
It would raise awareness with the Police that there are genuine/responsible people out there who want to carry a knife in a responsible manner.

At the end of the day, we are not criminals. We just want to practice our hobby within the law, and I'm sure the Police would support that.

My local Police Station is just down the road from me, and I've been chewing on the idea of popping down there since this thread started, as I completely sympathise with Jon, and know that my mind would go blank, or I'd get tongue-tied if stopped and questioned why I was carrying a knife.

2 years at Her Majesties pleasure seems a bit steep for getting my words muddled!

Interesting you should mention that, as it is something I have thought about.
Why don't I go and show them what I have got, let them see I am not an aggressive yob and that my blade is a tool, not a weapon and see what they say about it, but as said, they enforce the law, not make it, so would it make any difference, if I was caught with my locking leatherman, while walking a street, after forgeting to take it off my belt.................Jon

 

[Neiltoo]

The average citizen of this green and pleasant land really doesnt care what you use your knives for, or whether you have a legal right to pursue your hobby. When some sound bite hero of a politician ( who probably doesnt know which way is up) tells them that they will be safer when the carrying of any knife is banned they will accept this, as they in time accept most things.

I hope that Im wrong, but I fear that Im not. You can discuss this rationally and logically forever but rational and logic dont cut much ice with sheep.

 

[Martyn]

The average citizen of this green and pleasant land really doesnt care what you use your knives for, or whether you have a legal right to pursue your hobby. When some sound bite hero of a politician ( who probably doesnt know which way is up) tells them that they will be safer when the carrying of any knife is banned they will accept this, as they in time accept most things.

I hope that Im wrong, but I fear that Im not. You can discuss this rationally and logically forever but rational and logic dont cut much ice with sheep.

OK, so Britain is opressive and totalitarian. Fine. You've made your point. Up the revolution, Wolfie.

Do you have anything constructive to add to this thread? Any kind of solution?