puukko vs RM style

[bushwacker bob]

the question is Hugh, what do you prefer, shinkes "uber puukko" or you "PFK"?

I've seen both in the flesh and Either would be up to any test the other would do.Both are sharp and comfortable to use.
You already answered that yourself. Its just a personal preference.
Any difference in performance would be automatically compensated for by a skillful user.
Its not the knife that counts but the way you use it.
Battoning with a knife is a survival technique for the under equiped, most would use an axe, billhook or camp knife and not what is possibly your most vital bit of kit.

 

[Hoodoo]

I've seen both in the flesh and Either would be up to any test the other would do.Both are sharp and comfortable to use.
You already answered that yourself. Its just a personal preference.
Any difference in performance would be automatically compensated for by a skillful user.
Its not the knife that counts but the way you use it.
Battoning with a knife is a survival technique for the under equiped, most would use an axe, billhook or camp knife and not what is possibly your most vital bit of kit.

That pretty much sums it up for me too. :You_Rock_

 

[Toddy]

I really don't understand this huge opprobium some of you have with battoning.
I do it all the time, why carry an axe when a small folding saw and a decent knife will do ?

They weigh less than a quarter of the weight, pack a damned sight smaller, and for a hobo stove, or small fire, they're all I need.

I've never damaged a knife battoning, I've never even marked one.
It's not brute force and ignorance, it's practice makes a useful skill.

cheers,
Toddy

 

[British Red]

But then you have no excuse to play with an axe

 

[Toddy]

But then you have no excuse to play with an axe

True, true

I just hate lugging one about, especially if I'm just out for a wander.

cheers,
M

 

[FGYT]

i pretty much never us an axe not needed for fire wood i let the fire do the work and burn in half the bigger stuff and end feed plenty of small stuff on the floor to get it going still the Cegga is a lot lighter than the Kukri (stick tang to )

ATB

Ducnan

 

[John Fenna]

i pretty much never us an axe not needed for fire wood i let the fire do the work and burn in half the bigger stuff and end feed plenty of small stuff on the floor to get it going

The "lazyman" fire is one of my favourites too - but I like playing with axes as well!

The knives I use most are a small Mora that I rehandled with Desert Ironwood and Teak, a Cold Steel SRK in Carbon 6 which I shortened, reground and turned into a slightly dropped point instead of a clip point and handled in Oak, and a Pattern Welded "Bushcraft" type. I have just forged a stick tang carbon steel Wharncliffe/Seax which I am getting on with quite nicely.....
All have their plus points, I have battoned with them all, all have their limitations.
I prefer my leukko or SFA if I am doing any chopping and am looking to aquire a Billhook soon to try that....
I like most "sharp and shiny" kit but see the drawbacks and limitations of them all...
The only knife that I realy would not want (other than for the giggle factor) is a hollow plastic handled "survival" knife with a "saw" back and a half serrated blade....or one of those "axe/knife/compass/prybar" hybrids.....

 

[FGYT]

The "lazyman" fire is one of my favourites too - but I like playing with axes as well!

Loaf to live

 

[Toddy]

The only knife that I realy would not want (other than for the giggle factor) is a hollow plastic handled "survival" knife with a "saw" back and a half serrated blade....or one of those "axe/knife/compass/prybar" hybrids.....

Yep
I can see the copper's face now as I tried to explain a little light foraging

Loaf to live

Bushcraft..........chill the hell out asap

cheers,
M

 

[Siberianfury]

I really don't understand this huge opprobium some of you have with battoning.
I do it all the time, why carry an axe when a small folding saw and a decent knife will do ?

They weigh less than a quarter of the weight, pack a damned sight smaller, and for a hobo stove, or small fire, they're all I need.

I've never damaged a knife battoning, I've never even marked one.
It's not brute force and ignorance, it's practice makes a useful skill.

cheers,
Toddy

i agree toddy,
i hardly ever carry around an Axe, too bulky for an afternoon in the woods, and if im staying the night i bring a golok, wich trades a slight lack in chopping ability for alot more versitility, with a golok i can digg, chop, split, clear areas and so much more.

you gonna kill me for this Hugh, but ive always seen axes as tools kept in the shed when quick and easy woodcutting is needed, not as a forest tool, then again everyone has theyre own opinion.

ATB
Josh

 

[Shinken]

Thanks for the Comments Red. i am glad it is working well for you.

Just to put the record straight i really was not trying to big up any knife i have made.

Nor was i trying to say all full tangs are rubbish, i am simply trying to point out that the myth that full tangs are far superior is not correct.

And my opinion that a stick tang with a strong handle of either micarta, a good stabilized wood or some other strong material is in my opinion is a more durable tool. and lighter.

I own full tangs and i will quite happily use them without worry.

Ive put a thread on BB and most failures with knives seems to be chipping etc a couple had scales lift of and a couple had stick tangs spin and come out (the holes must have been drilled round)

So stick tangs do fail and so do full tangs, but well made ones don't.

It's just harder to tell if a stick tang knife has been made well

In my opinion of course

 

[HillBill]

I really don't understand this huge opprobium some of you have with battoning.
I do it all the time, why carry an axe when a small folding saw and a decent knife will do ?

They weigh less than a quarter of the weight, pack a damned sight smaller, and for a hobo stove, or small fire, they're all I need.

I've never damaged a knife battoning, I've never even marked one.
It's not brute force and ignorance, it's practice makes a useful skill.

cheers,
Toddy

I used to use an axe, but in all honesty i never "needed" an axe. I use a Fallkniven A2 now, much more versatile. It can fell a tree up to 12" diameter at a push ( battoning) and can split 7" logs in couple of blows plus it can out chop a wildlife Hatchet. Be used as a draw knife etc. A large knife has a more versatile edge than an axe. I've got plenty of axes so its not a case of i need to use a proper axe. The only gransfors axe that can out split the A2 are the splitting axes, maybe a big felling axe, not the double bit one though or possibly the new outdoor axe.

Tang wise the A2 like all standard Fallknivens has the best arrangement going IMO not full tang not stick tang, best of both. I bet they are the strongest most unbreakable blade/handle arrangement you can get. They aint the prettiest things about, but if you want a simple no nonsense tough as nails set up then look no further.

I'm in the process of making a knife set up as a carver with a 3" blade that i will pair up in a sheath with the A2. Also doing a mod on a Fallkniven A1 blade that had the original factory fitted handle removed. That is more stick tang now, about 13mm wide and 6mm thick with brass bolsters and leather stacked handle.

 

[Toddy]

I have a nice selection of good useable, and well used, knives One of my very favourites is the WM1 that Leon_1 handled and sheathed for me. It's just an eminently practical tool, besides he did a beautiful bit of work on it

cheers,
Toddy

 

[British Red]

you gonna kill me for this Hugh, but ive always seen axes as tools kept in the shed when quick and easy woodcutting is needed, not as a forest tool, then again everyone has theyre own opinion.

ATB
Josh

I only care what works for me - everyone is entitled to what works for them

I have a number of axes - even two I was lucky enough to have a hand in designing. The one thing I do know is that, unless someone has changed the laws of physics, an axe is a more efficient impact cutting tool than a knife. It simply has to be once you understand the principle of torque.

So, once you accept that, its a question of is the weight worth the efficiency. I guess that depends on what you plan to do (it does for me anyway). But as for weight, well a 650g axe isn't a lot. And the rotational efficiency it offers compared to batoning is vast. Indeed such an axe weighs no more than many large knives and less than a lot (including a couple of mine)

BUT its not the only tool. For cutting a cross grain, a saw wins, for vertical "with grain" splitting, an axe wins. A larger knife wins on sheer versatility.

For me, anyone who doesn't choos the tool with some reference to the intended task is limiting their options. If you are cutting thatch and shelter building, a bill hook is the tool to take. If processing large amounds of wood, axe and saw.

Right tool, right job - its that simple.

Red

 

[bushwacker bob]

I[ really don't understand this huge opprobium some of you have with battoning.
I do it all the time, why carry an axe when a small folding saw and a decent knife will do ?

QUOTE=Toddy;592452]I
They weigh less than a quarter of the weight, pack a damned sight smaller, and for a hobo stove, or small fire, they're all I need. [/QUOTE]
The small saw should be enough. If your using standing deadwood,you should be able to snap most of it and for a hobo stove I can always source enough wood for a few hours from sticks without having to get to log size stuff so I dont need to cut anything

Inot brute force and ignorance, it's practice makes a useful skill.

Agreed, its a useful skill to know, but I can't see the point of risking doing it unless I have too.Its one of those things I wouldn't rate as absolutely safe or necessary if doing a bushcraft H & S risk assessment!

 

[forestwalker]

you gonna kill me for this Hugh, but ive always seen axes as tools kept in the shed when quick and easy woodcutting is needed, not as a forest tool, then again everyone has theyre own opinion.

Of course, and it deoends on what you may be called to do. Where I operate (northern Sweden) I may need to cut serious amounts of firewood just for one night. Sure, in many cases I can push over standing dead pines and spruces, and for small cooking fires there is seldom *need* for any other tool than your hands. But in a worst case scenario (get soaked going through ice, temps dropping, no spare clothes, darkness and bad weather) I need a big fire for several hours, preferably one that won't have me needing to put more firewood on every 30 minutes, so I can get some sleep. So I carry as a minimum a mid size axe (Wetterlings hunters, or a Hults bruks axe with heavier head but same lenght helve), but preferably my full size GB. In addition to a knife and firesteel.

 

[dogwood]

you gonna kill me for this Hugh, but ive always seen axes as tools kept in the shed when quick and easy woodcutting is needed, not as a forest tool, then again everyone has theyre own opinion.

The axe is a legacy tool -- a tool for building a civilization.

Axes are indispensable for durable forest shelter building and construction (boats, furniture, whatever), which is why settlers always had a few on hand. If you face the prospect of living in the frontier, you want a few axes about. You wouldn't want to hew a beam by batoning

And naturally axe variations (tomahawk, a couple of types of viking axes, etc.) were valuable as weapons in times/places where there might be hostiles about.

Today, for our purposes and camping styles, the axe is pretty much an anachronism and a decent folding saw (laplander style or bucksaw, another frontier essential) is superior as a replacement.

You don't need an axe for firewood or the kinds of temporary shelters we build now.

However, for people who want to keep those old skills alive by carrying an axe, I say more power to them. But I would take it a step further and encourage people to practice the full range of axe skills, hewing, notching, etc. The first time I hewed a beam it was an eye opening experience with respect to the lives of our forebears.

Just carrying one to hack up some firewood seems like a waste to me.

 

[dogwood]

Of course, and it deoends on what you may be called to do. Where I operate (northern Sweden) I may need to cut serious amounts of firewood just for one night.

I can relate to nights like that

But I've found that I was much more efficient gathering large amounts of firewood with a decent folding bucksaw than I ever was with an axe. And the weight is about the same.

Have you tried a bucksaw?

 

[Toddy]

QUOTE=Toddy;592452]I
They weigh less than a quarter of the weight, pack a damned sight smaller, and for a hobo stove, or small fire, they're all I need.

The small saw should be enough. If your using standing deadwood,you should be able to snap most of it and for a hobo stove I can always source enough wood for a few hours from sticks without having to get to log size stuff so I dont need to cut anything


Agreed, its a useful skill to know, but I can't see the point of risking doing it unless I have too.Its one of those things I wouldn't rate as absolutely safe or necessary if doing a bushcraft H & S risk assessment![/quote]


I think that's the difference in viewpoint. I don't see it as a risk at all. It's neat, tidy, simply achieved. Neither my hands nor any other limb is at risk. The knife is well able to take the use.
Most of the standing deadwood around me is waaaay to big to do anything without a saw or an axe. I can't snap 6 or 8 or 10 cms branches small enough for the hobo stove. So I saw them small and then use the knife.
I'm not including elder, rhodi, hawthorn or pine small stuff in that.......they burn too damned quickly in a hobo, it needs masses of fuel to keep it going with those.

Lots of Ash, Sycamore, Birch around where I wander. All considered weed trees really in the quantity they seed and grow here. (I've certainly helped thin out Ash and Birch lots of times with the local rangers) Lot of Oak and Beech too, Holly and Hawthorn and Chestnut growing around.
I suppose it depends on what you're used to.

cheers,
Toddy

 

[wizard]

This has certainly been an elightening thread. I guess my opinion for what to carry will vary greatly by where I am going and for how long. Since I live in the desert (it was 101F yesterday, Oct 18th), it is easiest for me to take a hike that is for the day in some interesting place nearby. Most wood is easily broken by using a foot and maybe a rock, the wood is seldom very thick. It does burn well and for a long time. So, on these nearby day trips I take my SAK Farmer and a carbon clipper. A fire would only be in a emergency anyway.

If I go overnight to a desert area, I take my Laplander saw also and perhaps a better fixed knife, like my Woodlore style or soon, my Wolverine Puukko.

The thing I have here in Arizona is a variety of areas. If I drive 2 hours north, I have pine forest. Pine is a wood that burns quickly and easily. An axe may be useful to keep wood ready for the fire, since you can use so much of the stuff. We also have to be careful not to burn when the wooded area is very dry and often have fire bans, no axe in that case!

We also have some hardwood forest here and there at certain elevations and a saw and axe can also be really useful.

I seldon take much beyond a SAK Farmer and a good fixed blade on a one to two night trip. I can always get by with available dead branches and other means to make wood into good fire size pieces without the need to carry and axe or a saw, although the saw is often carried. I only take that axe if I plan on using a lot of fast burning wood or if I plan on some shelter building using natural materials. I too think it is heavy and I am old Cheers!