puukko vs RM style

[Toddy]

Out and about l carry a DC4 and a similarly sized wooden backed leather covered strop......actually come to think on it, I only use those at home too to sharpen, just a bigger strop board........I sometimes think some folks look on sharpening with devotion akin to a religious experience

cheers,
Toddy...............waiting for the fireworks

 

[Toddy]

.................

Its a bit green though......

I thought a nice heritage green would look good......but man is it green!!

Red

It sure is, I tried it on my clothes poles once, thought it would blend in nicely in the garden
That'll be a no

Looks good on a door though , old cars, stoves......just it's very, very, 'green'........maybe when the kitchen is occupied with stuff it won't be quite so definite. It is a good colour

cheers,
M

 

[Shinken]

In case none of you know, i really really prefer a good puuko.

Of course the RM knife is a knife (just) and will cut, batton etc etc.

But they are too heavy, too thick, and in my opinion the scales on full tangs are liable to lift eventually. As epoxy does not have the sheer strength, (which is why they are so thick to avoid flex in the metal) but this could be solved by the use of a metal bolster which will make it even more heavy

 

[brancho]

In case none of you know, i really really prefer a good puuko.

Of course the RM knife is a knife (just) and will cut, batton etc etc.

But they are too heavy, too thick, and in my opinion the scales on full tangs are liable to lift eventually. As epoxy does not have the sheer strength, (which is why they are so thick to avoid flex in the metal) but this could be solved by the use of a metal bolster which will make it even more heavy

I totally agree with all of this which is why I will stick with Scandi style knives.




Before someone says a woody clone is a scandi no they are not, they have a scandi grind.

 

[Hoodoo]

You know, only a busy man (who's building a new kitchen ) could forget a Stu Mitchell kitchen knife

Draven I suspect I ought to have made myself clear.........I don't think of honing and stropping as 'sharpening', I think of sharpening as slightly more aggressive use of stones or files.......I strop my knives all the time but I rarely sharpen......is that clearer ?

Micro bevels on a Scandi......and Josh said that he used convex ones.....yeah that would be fun to re-establish on a sharpened knife.

cheers,
Toddy

Actually a convex microbevel is easy to maintain by stropping. In fact, it's the usual result from stropping flat ground carving blades over a long period of time.

 

[Siberianfury]

most puukko style knives have a microbevel, either flat or convex, this helps to add strength, without comprimising cutting ability.
woodlores actualy have a slightly hollow ground blade, with no microbevel.
although this may be very sharp, the edge is going to be weaker.
ray mears seems to have gone through a few woodlores, some episodes in "bushcraft" his woodlore had been sharpned so much, the edge had worn upwards.
but in wild food, his knife looked brand new.

 

[Hoodoo]

In case none of you know, i really really prefer a good puuko.

Of course the RM knife is a knife (just) and will cut, batton etc etc.

But they are too heavy, too thick, and in my opinion the scales on full tangs are liable to lift eventually. As epoxy does not have the sheer strength, (which is why they are so thick to avoid flex in the metal) but this could be solved by the use of a metal bolster which will make it even more heavy

It's not a problem if the scales are bolted on. But actually, I've not seen it as a problem even if pins only are used. In the past 20 years, I can count on one hand how often I've seen this and not on any of my knives. I have full tang kitchen knives with walnut scales that are older than me and the scales are held on with nothing more than cutlers rivets. No epoxy.

 

[Siberianfury]

It's not a problem if the scales are bolted on. But actually, I've not seen it as a problem even if pins only are used. In the past 20 years, I can count on one hand how often I've seen this and not on any of my knives. I have full tang kitchen knives with walnut scales that are older than me and the scales are held on with nothing more than cutlers rivets. No epoxy.

dont liners help to absorb shocks and felx in the blade, and prevent the scales from lifting

 

[Shinken]

It's not a problem if the scales are bolted on. But actually, I've not seen it as a problem even if pins only are used. In the past 20 years, I can count on one hand how often I've seen this and not on any of my knives. I have full tang kitchen knives with walnut scales that are older than me and the scales are held on with nothing more than cutlers rivets. No epoxy.

With all due respect mate, there are a lot of makers who get sent knives that have failed. And i am willing to bet that out if all the well made knives that get sent to them most of the failures are full tang.

Wayne Goddard even writes in one of his books that this is the case, and he see's a lot of knives.

If you look after your knife it should not be a problem, i personally have had full tang knives that where bolted and when i flexed the blade the scales near the riccasso lifted.

This is why i think they tend to be made thicker to avoid that happening. But with a well made scandi you don't see this trend.

I think you look after your knives Hoodoo

 

[bushwacker bob]

I think you look after your knives Hoodoo

No. he has a full time job. If he looked after that many knives he wouldn't have time to work.

 

[Hoodoo]

This is why i think they tend to be made thicker to avoid that happening. But with a well made scandi you don't see this trend.

I think you look after your knives Hoodoo

Well, I don't use them as prybars if that's what you mean.

Wish I had saved a few pics from British Blades of those Helle's with broken handles...

I'm not knocking stick tangs, as I dearly love 'em. I'm just saying that people who live in grass houses shouldn't stow thrones.

 

[Siberianfury]

Well, I don't use them as prybars if that's what you mean.

Wish I had saved a few pics from British Blades of those Helle's with broken handles...

I'm not knocking stick tangs, as I dearly love 'em. I'm just saying that people who live in grass houses shouldn't stow thrones.

i think the strength in a stick tang is in the handle material and the brass ferrel, many helle knives lack a ferrel, and most have a very thin tang. if a stick tang knife with a ferrel breaks, its usualy down to an imperfection in the handle.

ATB
Josh

 

[Toddy]

Actually a convex microbevel is easy to maintain by stropping. In fact, it's the usual result from stropping flat ground carving blades over a long period of time.

I thought they were difficult to establish evenly and the aim wasn't supposed to be a convex Many years ago, right enough, I was told that the aim was a chisel edge.......two different degrees.
I do know that too many folks stress the sharpening to the detriment of their knives..........ground away trying to get that elusive perfection time after time after time. Better sharp enough to use and then *use* them

cheers,
Toddy

 

[Siberianfury]

I thought they were difficult to establish evenly and the aim wasn't supposed to be a convex Many years ago, right enough, I was told that the aim was a chisel edge.......two different degrees.
I do know that too many folks stress the sharpening to the detriment of their knives..........ground away trying to get that elusive perfection time after time after time. Better sharp enough to use and then *use* them

cheers,
Toddy

i find it alot easyer than maintanting a normal microbevel, you dont have to keep an idea on the angle, just tilt the edge slightly and your away. i dont think it realy matters though, as long as you have somthing taht works for you, i like a 8mm+ scandi grind with a convex microbevel as its a great comprimise between strength and cutting, and is easy to maintain, as hoodoo said, stropping will naturaly give the edge a very silght convex.
as with most things, what ever works for you is the best.

 

[Toddy]

Hoodoo, my Helle delaminated (and was very quickly replaced by Helle) but I've never broken a tanged blade, or come to think on it, seen one broken ...... there was an excellent article on how to batton securely with a stick tanged knife though and the author described how he had broken one and then worked out why and how not to do it again
If you want the delaminated photos for your records, I can find them again.

cheers,
M

 

[Shinken]

Wish I had saved a few pics from British Blades of those Helle's with broken handles

That is not a well made stick tang then

 

[Hoodoo]

Many years ago, right enough, I was told that the aim was a chisel edge.......two different degrees.

Mmmm, well, don't know about that. For carving, I'd find that kind of edge useless. If I get a carving knife and it has a secondary bevel, it goes in the drawer until I get time to get rid of it. Micro bevel yes, secondary bevel, no. At least for carving. For utility and hard use, that's another strory.

These are some of my carving knives, All are flat, flat, flat. You can keep 'em sharp simply by stropping. They will develop a convex bevel after awhile because of the give in a strop. I don't mind a convex microbevel but when it gets to be too much, I have to flatten the blades again.

Rick Ferry is quite a famous carver and runs Little Shavers. He also sharpens carving knives for carvers around the world. I think he once said he's sharpened over 7,000 knives. He has a great page here on sharpening.

With the exception of the knife on the lower left, all of these whittlers have blades that are flat with no secondary bevel.

Like the carvers above, the blades are really thin. They are designed for carving woods like basswood. The blades on the folder on the lower left are flat ground with a bit of a convex edge. That knife is set up for cutting hardwoods like walnut. Del Stub's knives work well for hardwoods too (second from left, top photo), and they are flat ground but with thicker blades than the others. So the angle of the primary bevel makes a difference as well.

 

[British Red]

Without wanting to seem "kiss up", I can't imagine anything vaguely bushy I could do to my "Shinken Uber Puukko" that would damage it. I've driven nails in with the butt cap (no really) amongst other horors and it just keeps coming for more. Given the blade length its not going to be possible to baton through more than a 2 1/2" log but it would eat that up. For all that I rarely baton since I have an axe somewhere

Red

 

[Siberianfury]

Without wanting to seem "kiss up", I can't imagine anything vaguely bushy I could do to my "Shinken Uber Puukko" that would damage it. I've driven nails in with the butt cap (no really) amongst other horors and it just keeps coming for more. Given the blade length its not going to be possible to baton through more than a 2 1/2" log but it would eat that up. For all that I rarely baton since I have an axe somewhere

Red

the question is Hugh, what do you prefer, shinkes "uber puukko" or you "PFK"?

 

[British Red]

I like em both to be honest. I do like stuff with craftsmanship in them - Stu did an amazing job on the PFK and it was made exactly to my own design - even to engraving squirrels etc. on it and having the sheath custom tooled. Its a work of art (although not all pretty now like in the photos since it get used a lot).

Shinkens puukko is very much a "beautiful tool" and the design is from his own head. Its shorter in the blade than the PFK and has a less pronounced point. That could be a problem for, say, fine skinning work. But for that sort of wotk, to be honest, a nice little opinel eff is more the ticket anyway. That said the puukko has a wonderfully solid feel - a more conventional grind angle than the PFK and is made of a "super steel" so is more corrosion resistant etc. The brass gives the handle real weight and a lovely solid feeling

All I know is....either knife could do far more than I am capable of...put either one in Hoodoo's hands and I would weep for my lack of skill

Having seen what skilled woodsman achieve with a mora...I think any other adornment to a knife is just because you like it and because you can have it. Its not really necessary.

Currently The Puukko is my "carry knife" around in Lincolnshire and the PFK in Hampshire