Paramo - checked them out and can't decide if good or not.

[Paul_B]

Let me explain, I first got paramo alta and Tue matching trousers when they first came out. Great fabric very very poor design of the jacket. Trousers were decent though too warm for late spring through early autumn. Used them for 10 years or so before switching to membrane waterproofs.

Every so many years I checked paramo out. When velez first carne out and later when alta II came out. I thought my biggest dislike of my original design alta got fixed when paramo ditched their original view that hooks and loop adjustment doesn't work when iced up and they first put it on the cuffs. The alta III now has narrower cuffs with hook and loop adjustment. In my original it used poppers which meant you couldn't really adjust to the right tightness. I hated the way the stupidly wide cuffs kept falling out of the cuff.

Anyway I tried pajero, alta III and heiko models. Pleasant surprise. Pajero in large was a little loose in the body but too short on the arms so I could never buy it. Alta III was similar but I tried xl. Right length arms but way too baggy in the body. So far my opinions of paramo that they suit shorter people or people with big girth (I've heard some people politely describe them at good for fat dog walkers).

So the heiko in xl. Good fit! Arms right length, body isn't too wide, rather tidy / normal fit. Basically it seemed to have a similar fit to membrane jackets. Why are other paramo jackets so much different in fit?

Does anyone know if there are any other paramo jackets a similar fit to heiko? I'd really like alta III design but heiko fit. Heiko doesn't have waist adjustment cord and the hem cord is really bad design. Plus I like the pit zips of the Alta III.

Anyone know more about paramo fit? Anything close to heiko but better design features? Even a smock.

 

[Limaed]

We had a rep come to my MRT from Paramo last year, he said the company felt they had got the fabrics right but accepted they needed to address some issues with fit and ‘styling’. Perhaps some designs have been updated and others not? The cut of their clothing has always been a bit odd - I wouldn’t buy without trying on first.

 

[oldtimer]

I must be an odd shape: I love my Cascade which I have had since 2007.

NB I don't have a dog and I'm not fat!

 

[Paul_B]

Please don't take offence by my quote of the user fit comment I've heard. It's illustrative of the design view taken by paramo where they believe you need volume in the torso to accommodate extra clothing. I think that's their thinking.

Imho I'm L to XL in most brands for pretty much all my outdoor clothing. Actually I'm annoyingly between the two for most brands. Paramo needs XL but i then have flappy body. There's only so much volume that can be taken up by waist and hem cord.

But what surprises me is there is no consistency in target and design I think. Perhaps I'm off the mark here. Pajero is possibly aimed at nature observing types, birdwatchers and similar activities. Periods of standing around, perhaps you're less likely to be athletic build (no offence meant but I live and visit RSPB Leighton Moss a lot). However imho the pajero very nearly fitted me as well as the slimmer Heiko. Alta III is their high mountain (well UK hill in all seasons) jacket. Cascada is their lower level jacket possibly ideal dog walking jacket due to longer length I think (not tried it on since the earliest days of paramo). However alta III is a short arm or wide body jacket.

I find it very very interesting that one of their reps admitted to the MRT they had a problem with fit. Many, many fans love their fit so any change might alienate them. A little bit of change has happened with new designs IMO.

From my pov I would never have changed from paramo if they'd never had the hook and loop cuff closure. Also, if they'd never had so much material in the cuffs. Third version of Alta, I had the original, has smaller cuff with velcro closure. Imho my gen 1 Alta was a better fit than current one. Sizing have changed once it seems.

Now I need to visit a paramo main dealer to try on the whole range. Then save up! They're certainly top end prices now. I got mine when half the price of goretex jackets. Full head to toe waterproofs for less than £200!!!!

 

[Billy-o]

I wouldn’t buy without trying on first.

I know what you mean. I was hugely suspicious of Paramo but eventually scored a Velez (XL) and a Bentu fleece (L). Had to buy online as I'm not in the UK now.

L Bentu fits well and close, XL Velez I thought baggier than I wanted. And the Velez, well it frankly appalls my fragile aesthetic sensibility .. even though it is black. The cloth feels squirmy and the two shades of black look hideous.

But, but, but, the Velez works incredibly well, shrugging off the engulfing torrents of a BC late-Autumn with elan, and can be readily trimmed to fit with the various elastications. More, I completely got over the aesthetic part once I started wearing it regular in the rain, things fell into proper perspective and the bagginess of the fit started to feel like a real boon. Easy to move in it, very.

Re. the Velez, I went from 'This is an unlikely punt, likely ending in a resale' to 'I don't often think to reach for another jacket'. Not in short order, no. But, I think I'll be getting another Paramo jacket sometime – Alta or Enduro ... maybe trousers too, who knows. Convert, if not exactly zealot.

 

[Paul_B]

Trousers are something else. I'm tall and slim ish. More ish of late. Their trews were great if short and baggy. Plus don't kneel if wet in them. Water goes through if pressure is applied.

I don't wear waterproofs unless absolutely need to. Then only for as long as I really need to. One winter trip I fell halfway up my thigh into a Lakeland tarn through snow. Plus my hands went in.

I got helped out and we moved quickly behind a hillock for shelter from the wind I took my gloves off, put paramo over my soaking trousers and put on back up gloves. 10 minutes I was warm, 20 minutes I was nearly dry in lower half. 2 hours later my hands defrosted. They're that good. Put them over wet trousers and you dry trousers out.

If I could I would want a pair of paramo custom cut to fit me snugly with stretch and articulation to wear as winter trousers. No zips just looking like insulated trousers.

 

[oldtimer]

I didn't take offence Paul_B, what I was taking was the micky!

Seriously I would take the issue of longevity into account. My Paramo Cascada has lasted far longer than any other jacket I have ever had. I have now had it for nearly 12 years and it still has plenty of life left in it. I wear it most days in the Autumn and winter as I value the warmth and waterproof properties. I forget what I paid for it but it was no more than previous Goretex, E-Vent or whatever, over the years I've had them all. And I've never had one that didn't let me down at some stage. So, if I work out the cost per year, my coat is good value for money

My coat philosophy is have just one that does everything wherever I am. In my case nowadays this is British winters and Pyrenees altitude. I've come to love my coat and wonder what I will do when it falls apart. I have a Helly Hansen in the cupboard as backup.

As to fit, the Cascada is loose and a bit baggy, but it has room for a couple of extra layers underneath, This is usually a paramo fleece pullover and, if really cold, a down gilet. The bagginess lets me stuff the pockets with a merino buff, gloves and light overtrousers which I only wear when I really have to. The map pocket also takes a pilot's flask.. I can thus wander out for a bimble without carrying a daysack although tucked away in the pockets I keep a very small foldaway daysack into which everything can be stuffed when the weather turns warmer. I like green as being inconspicuous important to me, but I couldn't give a monkey's about how I look! To me style is something I have to climb over with increasing difficulty due to aging.

I guess the bottom line is to go for what you really need for your own peculiar circumstance.. "One size fits all" is never going to work. However, threads like this are very useful to guide choice. Until your post, for example I hadn't realised that Paramo had widened their range so much since I bought mine.

 

[Paul_B]

As I said my main reason for ditching paramo jackets (kept using the trousers for another 5 or so years) was the excessive cuff fabric that wasn't contained with velcro adjustment. A serious annoyance that grew with use.

Looking back I also found the reproofing never gets back to oe standard. Washing in never worked well for me no matter how accurately I followed the instructions. There were a few other issues too. Some big, some small.

So I bought new fabric on the block eVent. That lasted over 7 years before I took the plunge with the new version of goretex that had come out. It was a mountaineering jacket from Berghaus. A collaboration with Leo holding and other climbers more associated with high altitude climbs. Leo H was moving into that field and Berghaus was sponsoring an arctic circle expedition. The jacket was developed from the smock Berghaus made for the climbers. That jacket fitted me like it was custom made. Simple design meant it breathed better than anything I've worn with a membrane. It was as comfortable as paramo was if you could ignore poor fit and design features in original designs.

So lift my arms it didn't move at the hem. Total freedom of movement, space inside for layers but snug fit so even with just a tshirt it didn't feel like it was baggy. With layers on there were no big gaps to bellow or risk to bellow out warm air. Very good jacket for cycle commuting too because hood fits very well, fully adjustable and with excellent periphery vision but still gives good weather cover.

Imho getting a paramo fit and design closer to that jacket in a new design would probably tempt me back.

As to longevity? Imho the analogy concept relies on reproofing. I've read enough to know manufacturer produced treatment fails with time and can never be as successfully replaced by jacket owner. IME the best reproofing I did lasted a month of use. After a couple of years it simply wets out or you're shelling out on reproofing a lot.

Btw advice when I got my paramo was reproof every 2 years. It didn't take long to drop that timescale. Reading walking mags about it and different fabrics have different washing cycles. Event you wash frequently to clean oils that reduce breathability but reproof less often. Goretex less often washing but reproof at the time. Paramo I've read 6 monthly wash and reproof. Personally I've used eVent without washing for 5 years with no loss in performance.

The real benefit of paramo is that it's effectively a softshell that gives high weather resistance. I see it as buffalo with water resistance high enough to be effectively waterproof in use. It's not waterproof though. Simply not a barrier to water.

Kneeling is a common way of showing this but I've got wet through jacket shoulders with paramo in the past due to heavy rain.

My conclusion is it's not perfect just a choice. For me if it came in an size and design that suits me I'd look at it again. It is best used as a softshell that's able to be ok in most rain and other conditions, IMHO. That's what I'm really looking for. Leave softshell and hardshell just take the softshell.

 

[Limaed]

If it helps the Enduro jacket and trousers seems to be the best of both worlds as the fit is more slimline and well thoughtout. I agree that the fabrics aren’t truly waterproof but I find them generally more pleasant to wear and warmer in winter. Our ME MRT Kongur jackets and salopettes only last a couple of years before the Goretex lets in water, horses for courses I guess.

 

[Paul_B]

Ooof! £420 to get a slim fit paramo. How that brand has changed?! I got my alta jacket and trousers, 200 weight fleece, £25 compass and other bits for something like £200ish pounds. Back then a goretex jacket cost more but how things have crept up in price. A lot hasn't as much I reckon.

Too rich for me. Perhaps look up one of those custom makers based on Nikwax analogy fabric. Cioch I think is one. You're probably in their sort of price range.

 

[Paul_B]

Just seen their most expensive jacket is £325 off the peg or £350 made to fit custom. Their cheapest is £215 / £230 depending on whether you're off the peg or custom. Those have no liner on sleeves. £295 custom cheapest fully lined analogy type of clothing. All available with many fabric choices and colours.

Really why do paramo charge So much for their own jackets? Reason is possibly they make in Peru using a cooperative workforce made up of women escaping domestic abuse. Or that was once the social conscience story. More expensive than UK manufacture in a cottage enterprise in Scotland but possibly to fund the support of those in need.

 

[SaraR]

It seems like there has been a change in fit from short and boxy to tall and slim for some of their models recently, so maybe worth trying them again if the latter would suit you better.

 

[Paul_B]

Yes, the heiko almost fitted but the more technical alta III didn't. The enduro, named after the bike event called enduro obviously, is supposed to be slimmer fit too. Not stocked many places I've seen. Also probably the most expensive jacket they do by some way.

Once there was three cascada for easier, less demanding use, alta for everything UK and wider then the ski mountaineering/true mountaineering smock and salopette combo.

Now there's brands for hiding in the woods with pockets full of notebooks called Pajero. Velez for doing a bit of everything but has really become the alta in smock form. Original cascada for easy dog walks. Alta III for easy dog walks or more (not got enough bells and whistles for more severe UK hill walkers and poor image for those with eye to the summit photo but there's enough still using it for this probably older and it's the alta II version that they had for years). Then there's velez light/adventure for I know not what. Heiko? Slimmer perhaps a bit so younger or style conscious outdoors types might look especially with so several years ago exposed zip design. But it's got only hem adjustment and really isn't where it needs to be.

So that leaves spending more any other single item on the paramo stock list for a jacket design (fabric excepted obviously) meets only the mid range features of membrane jackets. Captive market? Good job they last because otherwise ....

Alternatives? Cioch or cioch custom made? No doubt very good jackets, but... without being unkind they're a little bit like paramo old designs. Kind of resembling the nikwax analogy garment version of the old Korean car firms using old Vauxhall tooling for the bodywork on their first cars into the UK. A couple generations back to original alta is my best determination from the website. Sorry for that. I do actually like them though. If I had enough money to risk a try I'd get a custom with my choice of colours (not a fan of one's on the site). Plus ask for if a few extra features could be added. Kind of mix spec from two models like aiguille alpine did for my custom rucksack years ago. To take the risk I need to be able to lose the money if it doesn't work out. In firmly believe you need to try outdoor kit on for fit and feel.

So in light of all my admitted negativity I still want a paramo jacket? Experience of using one. Yes it was badly designed, annoying in use and never lived up to expectations, but it worked best when wet then dry throughout the day. It felt no worse than a membrane in heavy rain but once stopped it felt nice quickly while you wear it.

Hard shell jackets you just take off but it's nice not having the hassle of on of shells but wearing a water resistant softshell. That's what it really is. I've spent years looking for a softshell I didn't need to cover in heavy rain. Sorry buffalo isn't that. I've tried and it's not effective.

So if paramo and those companies that use the fabrics too don't do the right fitting and right design product will anyone else try? Paramo need direct competition to drive better fit, design and price competition imho otherwise they'll not get things sorted beyond core customers(who are probably getting by with old paramo kit.

 

[C_Claycomb]

"...proper fit..."

I am about 5'8, 155-160lb, pretty average for Medium fit. I have an Alta 1 and it fits fine, ditto a Velez Lite smock, however, the cut of the new Alta III, Velez Jacket, Heiko, Bentu, etc...all the "new improved" garments, drives me nuts. They are a horrible fit for me. All way to high cut under the arms. The Bentu either pulled across my shoulders, or if I went once size bigger it pulled only slightly while being tent like elsewhere. I am glad I have the Paramo gear I have, acquired when it was somewhat less expensive (£200 for the Alta, £100 - £150 for Velez on sale).

 

[Paul_B]

I tried my old alta (original design) out again. It seems to me that the alta III is slightly slimmer but not by much. XL still looks like a tent around three body but only just long enough sleeves and body. The best way to describe my alta is that it's too big to wear double breasted like the suits!

Heiko looks more normal.

I guess I'm the opposite of you in my experiences. I'm 6'5" tall, 87kg, 34" waist, extra long leg length if available and 44" chest.

Personally I prefer less flapping fabric so a cleaner fit. Paramo might fit me by other people's standards but if you need a lot of the string at hem and waist hanging out to get a contact fit with your insulation layer it's too baggy imho.

I really can't see why paramo is really slow in catering for everyone. Sizes fit many but there's many who really like their brand / product but can't fit them. Keep alta, cascada and pajero but create versions with less material in the body.

My view is cascada, alta, pajera and velez as is. Heiko less torso but it's closer to my needs. So heiko and a slimmer alta version. Velez light/ adventure models ditched and replaced with slimmer fit smock. Imho most people who want lighter are probably slimmer fit types anyway but nothing to back that theory up other than observation in the lakes. You don't need a slim fit cascada. The enduro could be slimmer perhaps in a new model and possibly lighter but prefer not.

I think if you're into a pajera jacket you'll not be fussed about slim or not.

Imho cascada, alta, pajera and base model velez plus a version of enduro, with typical paramo fit.

Heiko, velez adventure or velez light not both and a newer endura in slim fit.

Right now I think in men's you've got about 9 models possibly more. You could keep that many I think and focus more according to fit and user. This isn't targeting recurring customers but maintaining them and reaching out to many like me who are paramo interested. I've been involved in many similar discussions with people of my view to know there's a decent potential.

 

[Billy-o]

In Canada there are a lot of tall lean people, like you ... my son is going to be one of them. In any case, there is, therefore Arcteryx, Paul-B

But, that is the outline they design for, and pretty much only that. However, their stuff is great and I use it and sometimes have to compromise in fit. Norrona are worse and I have the same problem there, but again the gear itself is perfect for what it aims to do. So one learns to live with something that is a bit long in the sleeve in order to be able to squeeze the rest of oneself in.

I too find Paramo roomy. But Fallraven, for instance, seem to have me personally in mind when they design clothes - 6', 200lbs. I suppose in the end it is down to the manikin of the average expected customer ... for Paramo, much of that constituency will have been historically generous with its portions.

 

[C_Claycomb]

Ah, yes, Fallraven is made for tall slender Scandinavians! All the trouser legs are too long for me.

 

[Paul_B]

The one thing about long trouser legs is you can shorten them. So long as no ankle zips and cords and there's no tailored articulation of course.

You can't do much if too short other than make shorts. If only more outdoor brands did unfinished trouser legs that were longer so after buying you could fit to you. My first outdoor trousers had a tape you put in a fold in the hem and ironed to create the hem where you needed it. I didn't need it!

 

[Billy-o]

Only ever bought a couple of pairs of Fjallraven longs. Both had unfinished trouser cuffs. Had to DIY it. (well, second time I just went to the dry cleaners and asked them to do it)

 

[MikeLA]

I like paramo because it’s roomy therefore you can be the deciding how it fits tighten it if need or baggy if you want to let it breath and you cool down.
Also more importantly allow you to layer up when necessary without restrictions.