Paramo - checked them out and can't decide if good or not.

[Paul_B]

You're not kidding! It's addictive reading about paramo stuff if you're looking at waterproofs anyway. My older eVent jacket is see through, my newer goretex pro jacket is still ok ish but the wire in the hood has snapped at least once. It looks as good as new because I mostly wear softshell or windproofs.

Back when I was single and going out with a group of fellow walkers of my age range every weekend I once worked out I went 18 months without actually wearing a waterproof! That's despite walking at least twice a week for the whole period with several weeks away to Scotland, Wales and our patch which is the lakes.

Now I was planning on spending less than £200 possibly £150 from alpkit. I was thinking I couldn't afford any more than that. I was supposed to be dropping into ambleside yesterday but didn't manage it.

That gave me time to read about the newer, athletic fit jackets by paramo. Now I'm thinking of spending £330 for a newer model velez hybrid jacket or, getting palpitations, £450ish for an endura jacket!!!!

Not something I should be thinking because we're selling our house, buying a new one and getting a van converted to a campervan which is going to suck all our money for some time. If only nobody had posted on this thread after I last read it. If only I didn't come up with the justification that my last waterproof cost £260 and lasted 8 years or more which equals £32.50 per year while my last paramo lasted 15+ years. That cost £13 per year for top to toe paramo and could have lasted longer with a better design. The sleeves were atrocious!! I reckon £330 paramo will get its money's worth.

 

[Billy-o]

Buffalo belay has a fitted hood now ... didn't know that

 

[Paul_B]

My view is someone dressed head to toe in Paramo could get the dunking and carry on without extra layers just moving around to warn up. I think someone might have experienced a dunking in buffalo kit and survived. I know you don't need to be dry to be ok. Wet and warm is second to dry and warm. Ask any novice kayaker!!!

 

[Billy-o]

£450ish for an endura jacket!!!!

I know. Doesn't make it any less tempting though does it?

 

[Paul_B]

Buffalo belay has a fitted hood now ... didn't know that

Or is that the alpine jacket?

 

[Paul_B]

I know. Doesn't make it any less tempting though does it?

That's the scary thing about believing in the Paramo clothing system! I'd never think if spending that on a membrane waterproof.

 

[Billy-o]

Here's it ...

Hooded Belay Jacket

The high performance denier gradient shell is soft and quiet and gives very high breathabilty and rapid moisture dispersal, ideal for cold hard walk-ins. Used by Military, Police,...

www.buffalosystems.co.uk

 

[Paul_B]

Still available without a hood but I quite like the alpine jacket. It's a hooded jacket, grown on hood AIUI, and a little more modern in design. All good kit though.

 

[MikeLA]

Not read all these posts but I can vouch for the Belay, that and the sp6 are my go to coats. The shorter Belay is good for carrying, front zip warmth and lasts. I like Paramo but no coat is worth that much

 

[Billy-o]

.... but the wire in the hood has snapped at least once.

If this becomes an issue, there are a bunch of videos showing how to replace the copper wire in an army windproof smock on You Tube. Might help.

 

[Paul_B]

Oh don't! Please don't give me another reason not to buy that new paramo!!!

So far I've got a lot more than I wanted to spend, I'm mixing house so perhaps not the best time for spending money on hobbies, my top spec goretex jacket is still in very good shape with only the wire in the hood damaged. And now you've just given me a hint at how to replace the wire!!!

On the plus side I've got, it's paramo, they've got a new fit that might fit me, it's new!! So far it's still balanced towards getting it but no more excuses not to, please!!!

 

[Paul_B]

I got the sp6 for a trip to Norway ski trip as something warm to wear when not skiing in the late Autumn before last. I wasn't confident it was warm enough because I felt cold wearing it on a windy autumn afternoon. It was ok walking around the ski resort even in the evening in Norway. I think i was cold because the wind blew through the side zip or the zip fabric. A kind of freak wind effect that I've not noticed since.

I certainly think sp6 isn't that warm if you're not moving. It's an active warm layer imho. Definitely would need an extra layer for hill side lunch stops in winter.

 

[MikeLA]

In the uk winter I either wear the sp6 all day, or if walking high hills wear a thermal only and throw the Buffalo on at stops. Done it this way for 30 years. Used to just wear a sweatshirt in the winter only and then put on the Buffalo at stops or a sleeka other times of the year.

 

[Paul_B]

I've been reading a lot on paramo and must admit that my experience of Paramo doesn't match what a lot of people seem to be saying about it.

For example a lot seen to buy into the membrane producer's hype about what a waterproof is. There's simply no barrier layer so you can force water through. Anyone scrambling in wet conditions using a knee to get up will get that wet feeling. Or indeed any pressure point. They're using that to say it isn't a waterproof. It's because the accepted test method favours membranes. My experience of Paramo is being dry in a day of pretty much full, heavy rain but the outer wetting out. Equivalent conditions in event and goretex pro results in wetting out and the resulting inability to breathe the sweat out. That's not a nice feeling neither. For me being wet in paramo is more comfortable than being wet in membrane jackets. The fabric is simply more comfortable. I think being wet in buffalo is similar.

I think hydrostatic head and moisture vapour transmission figures for breathability are used to define waterproof membrane fabrics but those simply don't relate to nikwax analogy fabric. Paramo test it at Leeds performance clothing institute in a rain chamber which apparently fires water at the jacket to simulate conditions 4x worse than typical UK rain and it passes for 4 hours. This test I believe doesn't work as well for membrane jackets as HH tests do. Perhaps we need a better standard test that can compare different types of weather resistant systems. Perhaps like IP ratings for devices. One where you can compare windshirts, buffalo, Paramo and membranes in a fair way.

My experience is of getting dry inside Paramo but feeling damp and clammy inside event and goretex. I also experienced hour and half of very heavy, torrential rain wearing a buffalo SP6 as well. It was comfortable except for the neck area where it simply rained in. Not enough adjustment to seal that area. This would be ok wearing a buffalo hood though.

The only reason I moved away from Paramo was because the original Alta jacket used poppers to adjust the cuffs which had way too much fabric IMHO. There was no way to stop the excess fabric from pulling out of the cuffs like a kind of arm ruff drooping down from my forearm. You have to remember that originally Paramo maintained a few rules they believed in? First hook and loop didn't work well in winter because ice froze on it stopping it sticking. Second the fabric meant it didn't need venting so no pit zips. I read that being said by gore too about goretex pro when they first released it. They defined the design standards which meant a limit to the number of fabric layers, means no 4 layers of goretex at the chest pockets like top end ME had but mesh pockets instead. As a result breathability was so much better and they claimed pitzips weren't needed. Rubbish!!! Right now most high end waterproof jackets in membrane or non membrane fabrics have pitzips or similar venting zips. They simply help the fabric out a lot so are a no brained IMHO.

I'm interested in seeing how new fit Paramo works. IMHO close contact between inner and outer layers improves how your clothing system moves excess water to the outside. To manage that you need more than a bulky torso jacket with hem and waist cords like my original version Alta had. Better to have a snug fit with free movement through guys design/tailoring. If the new athletic fit Paramo fits me then I think I might get one. If not I really can't.

 

[Paul_B]

Well I got to Ambleside only to find the Paramo shop within a shop shuts earlier than most outdoor shops. Luckily another retailer had Paramo and I got to check out the flabby Alta III, cascade and a couple of the naturally Paramo ones. I could tell that wouldn't fit. The medium ones looked huge around the body.

Then I saw a large Velez jacket not the smock but the jacket. It's a slimmer fit. I tried the large and XL. The large fitted my body and arms well but it's a short design, just about long enough but I prefer a little longer. No enduro jacket which they made slightly longer a couple of years ago when they had s design change. A lot more expensive though. The Velez jacket has better venting than the Velez smock. It has the venting pockets, centre zip and the upper arm vents too. Velez only my has the venting pockets as far as I could tell.

So AFAIK the endura, Velez, Velez jacket and Velez adventure light are the athletic / slimmer fitting Paramo jackets. I could have bought the Velez jacket today but only in black and it was the only jacket in my size in the shop. I really need to go back to try out all the other slimmer options before buying. Whilst I like the Velez jacket at £275 I fear to get the length I really need I probably need the endura model.

I really like the quality and complex design. There's a lot that has gone into them. The mesh inner is open but looked tough. The arm vents have inner mesh that is fixed near the outer side of the zip but loose all the way around underneath the arm into the inside of the arm. Not sure what the benefit is but it's interesting that they've done that. There's many interesting features I think and it'll take a bit of checking out when I get one.

Original design Paramo Alta was a very simple jacket. Loose pump liner attached to the outer at the edges and a few other places. Cords to cinch it in at the hem and waist. Cords at the hood that whipped your face when they were cinched in. The cuffs were poppered tight but not enough to stop the wide cuffs pulling out. Pockets at waist, one internal chest and one external chest. It did the weatherproof job though wasn't that great because of the niggles that caused problems, annoying problems at that.

I can confirm that modern Paramo is at another level of design from the original. They've actually learnt to make the most of their system I think.

 

[MikeLA]

I do like Paramo, had the cascade many years ago, liked the longer length. Just nowadays you need to make sure you buy the right one that you will be happy with for a long time and get your moneys worth because of the higher price’s they now cost.

 

[Paul_B]

That's true! Mine cost less than £200 for head to toe Alta, 200 weight fleece, Silva exped4 compass and a few other things. Admittedly on a student club discount night but still dirt cheap at full price then compared to now. Paramo definitely are cashing in on their popularity like all top end waterproof brands and models. Back in early to mid 90s they were the rarity and a big gamble. You really didn't see anyone wearing Paramo back then. People used to stop me to talk about it and people I walked with thought it was a bargain IF it works. However that didn't believe it would. Until they saw it working better than their membrane goretex jackets. Mind you more buffalo wearers back then and they had that same knowing nod about it!!

 

[Paul_B]

Does anyone know if the current version of the Paramo Endura jacket is a similar athletic/slim fit as the current version of the Velez jacket but longer?

I tried a black Velez jacket and it fits my body and arms but I prefer it longer than just about my belt line. I heard endura was longer originally then a redesign/update made it an inch or three longer. I can't get to a store that stocks both any time soon so might have to buy online based on one try of the Velez jacket and what I've heard about Endura from online reviews / comments here. I don't think the Velez jacket is right, the length would give me regrets about buying it if rain runs straight off it into my groin area (a pet hate with modern mountaineering waterproofs)

Appreciate any comments to help me choose. It's a lot of money to waste on something that's not right due to length.

 

[C_Claycomb]

Have you tried talking to the main business?

Contact Us - Paramo

www.paramo-clothing.com

For Customer service and general queries call us on
+44 (0) 1892 786444

Wanting to know the comparative lengths of the current line up is something that they themselves would be best placed to answer.

 

[Paul_B]

Actually I did contact them and asked about length and fit. Not very helpful because they just suggested I look at Alta III jackets and sent a link to fit guide on their website. That's after me putting in my email that Alta jackets do not fit and that the website doesn't indicate jacket length. TBH it looked like either a generic reply or an answer to someone else's questions.

I've contacted Paramo twice in the last two years. The previous time I got the answer to a different question I thought. It put me off them until more recently with a few things I've read about their newer products. Enduro looks good if heavy and made more for winter only.