Natural Shelter and leaving no trace (Small Rant)

  • Hey Guest, Early bird pricing on the Summer Moot (29th July - 10th August) available until April 6th, we'd love you to come. PLEASE CLICK HERE to early bird price and get more information.

demographic

Bushcrafter (boy, I've got a lot to say!)
Apr 15, 2005
4,694
711
-------------
I reckon out of the daft stuff I did as a spod, making dens was about the least offensive.

Making dens or knocking up things that went Bang...

Maybe I should have emerged from the womb aged 40, with a full on responsibility chip installed, like everyone else here.
 
Last edited:

cbr6fs

Native
Mar 30, 2011
1,620
0
Athens, Greece
I largely agree with the rest of your post. BUT!! Nothing fun is ever a waste of time.


No problem with folks or kids having fun, i just think they should clean up after themselves and have some responsibility.


There is an area where i go hiking that's close to a car park.
Next time i'm there i'll snap some pics as it looks absolutely disgusting.

There are fire scars every few meters with the inevitable burnt beer cans and bottles, folks have hacked away at what were great healthy tress so they can use young flexible wood to create shelters.
They've even pulled down part of a wall to make fire pits out of the stones.

The first shelters were made out of natural materials from the area, as they came back again and again and again they gradually started bring stuff with them.
Now there are poly sheets, poly bags, plastic bottles, string and even fishing line.

The dog got herself wrapped up in some and i had to cut her out.


So here is me with my little dog that picks up her poop to take it home and flush it away, yet these lazy gits that leave shelters up can't even be arsed to put stuff back as they found it.

As i say, in my opinion it's vandalism plain and simple.


If they want to practice making shelters, good on em.
To be honest i'd probably dib in just to waste an hour away.

But to not put the bloody stuff back as they found is just pure bone idleness and irresponsibility that IMO is tantamount to criminal activity.
 

mountainm

Bushcrafter through and through
Jan 12, 2011
9,990
12
Selby
www.mikemountain.co.uk
Lets get one thing straight. Vandalism is destructive. Moving sticks about is not destructive. The shelters I've seen have used fallen wood. Have no fire scars and no litter and use only sticks to build them.
 

mountainm

Bushcrafter through and through
Jan 12, 2011
9,990
12
Selby
www.mikemountain.co.uk
Thinking about it. It seems the best course of action is to stop people using woods all together. Lets face it, what with kids building dens. Dog walkers and cyclists eroding paths and foragers stripping the places bare of wild food - the woods are better off fenced off completely.

None shall pass.
 

Tiley

Life Member
Oct 19, 2006
2,364
374
60
Gloucestershire
Thinking about it. It seems the best course of action is to stop people using woods all together. Lets face it, what with kids building dens. Dog walkers and cyclists eroding paths and foragers stripping the places bare of wild food - the woods are better off fenced off completely.

None shall pass.

Exactly. After all, why have millions of pounds been spent on building shopping centres? That is where everyone should be spending their leisure hours.

Then you shall die.





'S only a flesh wound...
 

Teepee

Bushcrafter (boy, I've got a lot to say!)
Jan 15, 2010
4,115
5
Northamptonshire
...... The shelters I've seen have used fallen wood. Have no fire scars and no litter and use only sticks to build them.

I wish this was my experience of them, few of the ones I see are constructed of fallen wood. Trees are cut down, the ones that aren't are hacked into with axe's, nylon and paracord everywhere. Firescars, smashed glass everywhere, toilet paper and dumps in streams , sometimes abandoned pillows, duvets and usually epic amounts of rubbish.
Every time I walk through, I collect a dustbin liner full of others rubbish and it doesn't scratch the surface.

I can appreciate why you have different veiw of them TBH.
 

mountainm

Bushcrafter through and through
Jan 12, 2011
9,990
12
Selby
www.mikemountain.co.uk
I wish this was my experience of them, few of the ones I see are constructed of fallen wood. Trees are cut down, the ones that aren't are hacked into with axe's, nylon and paracord everywhere. Firescars, smashed glass everywhere, toilet paper and dumps in streams , sometimes abandoned pillows, duvets and usually epic amounts of rubbish.
Every time I walk through, I collect a dustbin liner full of others rubbish and it doesn't scratch the surface.

I can appreciate why you have different veiw of them TBH.

Well that is vandalism. But I think it's the local cubs/scouts in my wood and to be honest they're pleasing little structures - like sculptures. That seem to get re-used and repaired. Kicking one down would be an act of vandalism too as they do no harm.

Like I said - if it's just sticks being moved around there's no problem. If people are damaging trees and leaving litter it's different. In my eyes anyway.
 

rik_uk3

Banned
Jun 10, 2006
13,320
24
69
south wales
It could have fallen on an exploring kid, or an animal.

In YOUR opinion, could had stayed there years, we will never know because you took it upon yourself to destroy someone elses work.

As for it being vandelism...utter tosh if they are using dead materials from the woodland.

There was a recent thread where a member took it upon himself to tell people they could not camp where ever it was, his neck of the woods anyway but not land he owned and it peed me off to be honest. We're not the local sheffif, not Charles Bronson on some vigilante trip so keep you out so report to the land owner who then decides what to do.

Its the same here, what gives you the right to walk round woods deciding what is an eyesore, what meets your 'quality mark' etc? You have no such right, report to the land owner and keep your nose out of it.

If I was the landowner I would decide who would camp there, I would decide if a shelter stayed up because I own the land. I'd not want some self appointed friend of the woods interfering without invitation but these would be my choices as land owner.

I detest the rubbish left by others but lets be honest this is not a new problem, people have always done it and we get more now due to the increased popularity of camping and the outdoors. Pick up the trash and move on then if needed report the situation.

Just my opinion.
 

Teepee

Bushcrafter (boy, I've got a lot to say!)
Jan 15, 2010
4,115
5
Northamptonshire
.......There was a recent thread where a member took it upon himself to tell people they could not camp where ever it was, his neck of the woods anyway but not land he owned and it peed me off to be honest. We're not the local sheffif, not Charles Bronson on some vigilante trip so keep you out so report to the land owner who then decides what to do.

The way I understand that members actions, was that he was part of a group that acts to defend the landowners property, asked to participate in it by not only the landowner after his property was vandalised and damaged regularly, but by the police too. Neighbouring homes had been threatened by wild fires from people having fires in the woods (a common problem on the peat moors up there, as you'll be aware if you have ever been to the Dark peaks).

How was this a Charles Bronson like situation? :confused:
 
Last edited:

pango

Nomad
Feb 10, 2009
380
6
69
Fife
Odd that these lazy gits that leave these shelters always seem to also leave their beer bottles, BBQ sets and rubbish there as well.
Then again It's hardly a surprise to me, if they are too lazy to leave the place how they found it, it's not really much of a push to see they'll also be too lazy to clear up after themselves.

If it was in the wildest parts of Canada, Russia etc i could understand it.
But in the UK and most parts of Europe it's irresponsible and just plain idle to leave them up.

Also pretty dumb to waste time building them as well in this day and age IMO (again in most parts of the UK and Europe).

cbr6fs,
You seem to have some pretty entrenched views regarding people who don't slot neatly into your way of seeing things.

Let me say that if you give 10 people the same materials to complete a spoken objective, I guarantee you'll get 10 variations on a theme.

I built a shelter in a wood 3 and a half years ago, this spring past. The frame is of coppiced hazel which I cut myself and tied in with hazel/willow withies and hemp twine, because I'm too lazy to make cordage (so I'll give you that one). It's roof is of woven hazel, which I cut personally, and leaf litter. It has a hearth of built up earth and boulders. I've been aware for some time that another is using my shelter, but that's cool as they've shown due respect. There are no plastic bags, old barbecue trays, and the pile of garbage you assume someone like me would be too lazy to carry away with them.

My shelter is still standing and still in use. I hope to use it this coming winter and in the years to come, so by the time it does collapse it will be like the mythical 15 year old workshop sweeping-brush which has only had 6 shafts and 30 heads.

About 6 months ago, and almost by accident, I got in touch with a local guy who runs traditional woodcraft courses for children. He's doing great work with disabled, disadvantaged and troubled kids for the Local Authority, (Unfortunately, due to "the current economic climate", the future is now one of our lowest priorities!), and I discovered it was he who had built a 5X5 mtr, open sided woodsman's workshop/hut with shingled roof and telegraph post pillars, and he who coppiced the woodland for the purpose of conservation... and his own use. :cool:

"Almost by accident" I say, because the reason for my phoning him was to ask who the owner of the land was, as I wanted to report to him that someone had recently gone into the wood with a chain saw and cleared a trial for motorbikes. The owner was most pleased that someone had taken the time to pass on this information. I freely admit that I didn't want the blame and my interest was entirely self-interest! It turned out that the owner of the land had known about my shelter for some time and had gone there on occasion just to enjoy his woodland, though it wasn't he who was overnighting there.

My point in giving you this waffle, is to enlighten you to the fact that you're missing cultural differences by a long mile, both within the UK and in Europe, with regard to the separate concepts of land-ownership and land-use. The reason that there has never been a Mass-Trespass in Scotland, such as that on Kinder Scout, is precisely because of those cultural differences. Oh, we've had our moments, like The Seven Men of Knoydart, who came back from WWII with the misconception that they'd earned the right to plant potatoes and earned themselves jail sentences, but the right to go from A to B has rarely been in question, even if it means sheltering yourself from the weather at night!

I realise how lucky I am not to be living in a densely populated area, in fact I find the scenarios described on this thread to be horrendous and would run screaming into the distance if confronted by such around "my neck of the woods", but it wasn't always the tranquil rural escape it is today. I grew up surrounded by pit bings and running down industry, and not 1/4 of a mile from my cosy shelter in the wood was a lime-works until the late 1970's and the coppiced wood I've described exists only because of C17th and possibly earlier quarrying and lime burning. In the 70's and 8o's it was the garbage strewn eyesore you describe seeing today, and I'm still staggered at how it's recovered in the last 20-30 years.

The only explanation I can come up with regarding the disrespect shown in the past compared to the apparently pristine woodland I see today, is that kids don't go into the woods now but sit at home playing computer games, and a shift in perception that this is no longer a wasteland. The chap teaching traditional woodcrafts is trying to change the minds of video whizz-kids by enticing them back to the woods (that sounds wrong!). And good luck to him!

The behaviour your describing, cbr6fs, is to my mind unacceptable anywhere, so find something very odd about the fact that you object to abandoned shelters and garbage strewn camps in Britain or Europe (and I'd be interested to know just where in Europe), but seem to think it's acceptable in the wildernesses of Canada or Russia.

I have no intention of getting myself into the fankle of "You said something bad about my hero.", but it's patently obvious that the TV Woodcraft/lore Gurus have got a lot to answer for, You Tube is full of "woodcraft", and the idea that it's educational depends largely on the mindset of the beholder!

Cheers,

Pango.
 
Last edited:

Pict

Settler
Jan 2, 2005
611
0
Central Brazil
clearblogs.com
We have done some "permanent" improvements to our base camp location, table, small bridge to get to a spring, etc. The clearing itself is unnatural for that location and we have to clear it every year. The area is rarely visited by anyone but us. Leaving trash in a campsite is unacceptable anywhere.

I have found natural bush shelters all over the world. One thing I've noticed is that they don't seem to bother the wildlife as long as there are no humans actually present. A friend once installed a trail camera at his cabin location and it was amazing to see how little the wildlife were bothered by the presence of the cabin and other obviously human creations there. In the absence of humans they treated it like any other part of the landscape.

IMO the actual impact of a thing like a debris shelter is nil other than reminding other humans that you were there. They really are just a reordering of the materials already present, like a footprint.

At established campsites I have never been bothered by furniture and other improvements people left behind. Once in Algonquin Park we stayed at a site where someone must have spent days creating a throne-like Adirondack chair from local wood and a copious volume of sisal twine. That chair was very popular.

ETA - In a national park setting or other location where people go to enjoy nature it is very difficult to leave no trace at all so maximum effort should be expended to keep it looking as natural as possible, move on trails, stay in established campsites, pack out your garbage, don't cut living things. The ethic of leave no trace is a matter of degree and the powers of observation of who is looking for the traces. I get into many areas that see no human visitors for years at a time and just passing through or camping overnight will leave a "trace", you can't walk over virgin ground in the jungle without leaving lot's of ground sign that even a novice tracker would be able to read. If you stay for three days in a jungle camp there will be a beaten zone below the hammock shelters and little foot trails leading between them, the fire location, latrine area, and water source. That kind of human activity on a large scale will change the look of a forest in no time. I have revisited locations in the mountains here up to two years later and been able to find the places where I walked through. At the same time it was also easy to see that nobody had been there in two years. Mountain lions leave trails up there that look very similar.
 
Last edited:

cbr6fs

Native
Mar 30, 2011
1,620
0
Athens, Greece
Thinking about it. It seems the best course of action is to stop people using woods all together. Lets face it, what with kids building dens. Dog walkers and cyclists eroding paths and foragers stripping the places bare of wild food - the woods are better off fenced off completely.

None shall pass.

Come on MM lets take like adults here, there is absolutely no need to throw your dummy out and go to silly arguments.

No one is trying to stop anyone enjoying the outdoors, all i'm saying is, on public land we have a responsibility if we do enjoy it, to leave it exactly as we found it or better (i.e. collecting rubbish).

I'm not sure where kids come into it, as if kids are out in the woods with knives and axes unsupervised then it's asking for trouble.
If they are supervised then it's not really kids having fun is it, it's kids obeying orders from an adults idea of fun.

I wish this was my experience of them, few of the ones I see are constructed of fallen wood. Trees are cut down, the ones that aren't are hacked into with axe's, nylon and paracord everywhere. Firescars, smashed glass everywhere, toilet paper and dumps in streams , sometimes abandoned pillows, duvets and usually epic amounts of rubbish.
Every time I walk through, I collect a dustbin liner full of others rubbish and it doesn't scratch the surface.

I can appreciate why you have different veiw of them TBH.

Exactly this.

All the shelters i've come across that some idle git has left up, have had string, wire, plastic sheeting, bin bags, fire scars, live supple branches, trees around the area damaged etc etc.

If someone made a very discrete shelter out of 100% naturally scavenged materials, out of the way off the beaten track then we wouldn't be talking about it, as we wouldn't see it.

The fact we are talking about shelters we've seen means to me that the builder has failed in one of the below:
a/ Having land or a permission
b/ Being discrete
c/ Not being a lazy git
 

mountainm

Bushcrafter through and through
Jan 12, 2011
9,990
12
Selby
www.mikemountain.co.uk
I'm not sure where kids come into it, as if kids are out in the woods with knives and axes unsupervised then it's asking for trouble.
If they are supervised then it's not really kids having fun is it, it's kids obeying orders from an adults idea of fun.

They don't need knives and axes - it's fallen dead wood? Besides I had a penknife when I was 7.
 

cbr6fs

Native
Mar 30, 2011
1,620
0
Athens, Greece
cbr6fs,
You seem to have some pretty entrenched views regarding people who don't slot neatly into your way of seeing things.

I can see how someone may think that IF they quickly skim read my posts.
It's not really the case though.

I have absolutely no intention of bee keeping BUT i eagerly await BR's updates on his thread.
I have absolutely no intention of travelling to the Arctic circle, but really enjoyed Waylanders thread on the subject.

That's one of the reasons i like it here so much, the variety in interests and how we all go about things in different ways really interests me.

Let me say that if you give 10 people the same materials to complete a spoken objective, I guarantee you'll get 10 variations on a theme.

I built a shelter in a wood 3 and a half years ago, this spring past. The frame is of coppiced hazel which I cut myself and tied in with hazel/willow withies and hemp twine, because I'm too lazy to make cordage (so I'll give you that one). It's roof is of woven hazel, which I cut personally, and leaf litter. It has a hearth of built up earth and boulders. I've been aware for some time that another is using my shelter, but that's cool as they've shown due respect. There are no plastic bags, old barbecue trays, and the pile of garbage you assume someone like me would be too lazy to carry away with them.

My shelter is still standing and still in use. I hope to use it this coming winter and in the years to come, so by the time it does collapse it will be like the mythical 15 year old workshop sweeping-brush which has only had 6 shafts and 30 heads.

About 6 months ago, and almost by accident, I got in touch with a local guy who runs traditional woodcraft courses for children. He's doing great work with disabled, disadvantaged and troubled kids for the Local Authority, (Unfortunately, due to "the current economic climate", the future is now one of our lowest priorities!), and I discovered it was he who had built a 5X5 mtr, open sided woodsman's workshop/hut with shingled roof and telegraph post pillars, and he who coppiced the woodland for the purpose of conservation... and his own use. :cool:

"Almost by accident" I say, because the reason for my phoning him was to ask who the owner of the land was, as I wanted to report to him that someone had recently gone into the wood with a chain saw and cleared a trial for motorbikes. The owner was most pleased that someone had taken the time to pass on this information. I freely admit that I didn't want the blame and my interest was entirely self-interest! It turned out that the owner of the land had known about my shelter for some time and had gone there on occasion just to enjoy his woodland, though it wasn't he who was overnighting there.

My point in giving you this waffle, is to enlighten you to the fact that you're missing cultural differences by a long mile, both within the UK and in Europe, with regard to the separate concepts of land-ownership and land-use. The reason that there has never been a Mass-Trespass in Scotland, such as that on Kinder Scout, is precisely because of those cultural differences. Oh, we've had our moments, like The Seven Men of Knoydart, who came back from WWII with the misconception that they'd earned the right to plant potatoes and earned themselves jail sentences, but the right to go from A to B has rarely been in question, even if it means sheltering yourself from the weather at night!

I realise how lucky I am not to be living in a densely populated area, in fact I find the scenarios described on this thread to be horrendous and would run screaming into the distance if confronted by such around "my neck of the woods", but it wasn't always the tranquil rural escape it is today. I grew up surrounded by pit bings and running down industry, and not 1/4 of a mile from my cosy shelter in the wood was a lime-works until the late 1970's and the coppiced wood I've described exists only because of C17th and possibly earlier quarrying and lime burning. In the 70's and 8o's it was the garbage strewn eyesore you describe seeing today, and I'm still staggered at how it's recovered in the last 20-30 years.

The only explanation I can come up with regarding the disrespect shown in the past compared to the apparently pristine woodland I see today, is that kids don't go into the woods now but sit at home playing computer games, and a shift in perception that this is no longer a wasteland. The chap teaching traditional woodcrafts is trying to change the minds of video whizz-kids by enticing them back to the woods (that sounds wrong!). And good luck to him!

The behaviour your describing, cbr6fs, is to my mind unacceptable anywhere, so find something very odd about the fact that you object to abandoned shelters and garbage strewn camps in Britain or Europe (and I'd be interested to know just where in Europe), but seem to think it's acceptable in the wildernesses of Canada or Russia.

I have no intention of getting myself into the fankle of "You said something bad about my hero.", but it's patently obvious that the TV Woodcraft/lore Gurus have got a lot to answer for, You Tube is full of "woodcraft", and the idea that it's educational depends largely on the mindset of the beholder!

Cheers,

Pango.


You built a shelter out of mainly scavenged materials, good on ya.
With absolutely no sarcasm, i would enjoy reading and seeing pictures in a thread on how you did that .

I'm absolutely sure that many people on here that have built shelters on public land (i.e. not on a permission) have built them off the beaten track in a subtle way.
Again good on them.
There are then folks Kepis and that has his permission and has made discrete alterations to make life a bit easier, again good on him and i really really enjoy reading his posts.

There is a VAST difference in you building a low key natural shelter in a out the way part of the wood, or on a permission rather than some vandal chopping off decent branches to make a shelter covered in blue tarp right next to a footpath and then leaving it after they've finished with it.

In the most parts of the UK wild camping illegally, so our hobby is "tolerated"
By leaving up noticeable structures in heavy footfall areas all we are doing is screwing it up for everyone else on some selfish idle play acting.


It would take 10 mins to de-construct most shelters, 5 mins to lay the logs in long grass or out the way.
You then have the "fun" of reassembling it every time it's needed. win, win.


Again let me clarify.
If your on your own land or your permission then good on ya.

If your on someone else's or public land then in my opinion you have a moral and social obligation to de-construct your shelter after you've finished with it.
IF it's a shelter you use regularly then just build it right out of the way or in an area of natural camouflage.


Funny thing is in following my opinion above you'll be safer and not bring our hobby into disrepute, again win, win.


With regards to Canada, Russia (and Scotland to some extent) etc.
You are talking about VAST areas here, areas when you can literately walk for days and in some cases weeks without seeing another human being.
In remote parts of Russia and Canada it's difficult to get much more "off the beaten track".

So if you build a shelter in these areas it's unlikely ANYONE will ever see it, never mind enough people to warrant a complaint.

There is also the consideration that in these areas having even a basic shelter can often mean the difference between life and death, likewise having the knowledge and experience to construct a quick shelter is pretty much essential if you live an outdoors type lifestyle in those areas.
So in these cases it's basic common sense to practice until your comfortable making a TEMPORARY shelter.


Hopefully you can see that this is completely different than someone building a shelter in Clipstone forest right next to a fire road.


I just don't see ANY advantage in advertising the fact that we've built a shelter and where we've built it on public land.
At best it'll encourage the red socks brigade to shake their heads and write to their MP, at worst it'll draw ****** up kids thinking it's ok to camp there and desecrate the area around it.
 

cbr6fs

Native
Mar 30, 2011
1,620
0
Athens, Greece
They don't use logs. Staves at most. Things that can be broken easily. Dead wood.

I think i may of missed something MM, who do you mean by "they"?


Most the shelters i've come across have been lean to type shelters with large leaves like ferns on the back or worse still plastic sheeting.
Like so:

stock-photo-primitive-shelter-in-the-woods-65534998.jpg


I have seen a couple where branches are just leaned against a tree trunk teepee style, but on investigation these proved pretty much useless even in a mild drizzle.

shelter_building_party_l.jpg
 

Attachments

  • shelter_building_party_l.jpg
    shelter_building_party_l.jpg
    92.6 KB · Views: 7

rik_uk3

Banned
Jun 10, 2006
13,320
24
69
south wales
Mors uses plastic sheets/rescue blankets, good enough for him, good enough for me, his 'super shelter' relies on synthetics sheet.

[video=youtube;gbcbGh2YsUk]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gbcbGh2YsUk[/video]

[video=youtube;-IAktmN5prM]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-IAktmN5prM&playnext=1&list=PL1 2D3B483EA7CBD76&feature=result s_main[/video]
 

BCUK Shop

We have a a number of knives, T-Shirts and other items for sale.

SHOP HERE