Natural Shelter and leaving no trace (Small Rant)

[rik_uk3]

I lost track of this thread a while back, thanks for the advice. there was a good bit of the cheap blue rope about on them and a builders tarp, so I've took them off and binned them. Most of them are the teepee type against a tree so they're stable enough. Leaving them as they are.
All been built from dead wood so no harmed trees round here.

Sorry for causing the big debate, just looking for a bit of advice on what someone more experienced would do.

The builders rope and tarp were doing what harm? Someone took rope, tarp and built a shelter and you decided to bin it? You have no right to do that. Would you have done the same if it was a DD tarp and paracord? No, but they too are synthetic materials

 

[santaman2000]

...I'm not sure where kids come into it, as if kids are out in the woods with knives and axes unsupervised then it's asking for trouble....

I've carried a knife every day unsupervised since I was age 8 or so. An axe from about the same age although not daily. I was hunting unsupervised with a 22 since age 12. My 11 year old Godson has been carrying a pocketknife (although not daily) for a year now.

 

[santaman2000]

Gone are the days when we made dens under the living room table, making sure the tablecloth hung down enough so me mam couldn't see us (I've a big family). We made dens on top of our roof (three landings high our flats) climbed up the spout and passed the wood up, who needs woods.

Apart from the log cabin already mentioned, we built a lot of "tree houses." In actuality they were little more than the type home made treestand used by deer hunters.

 

[cbr6fs]

The builders rope and tarp were doing what harm? Someone took rope, tarp and built a shelter and you decided to bin it? You have no right to do that. Would you have done the same if it was a DD tarp and paracord? No, but they too are synthetic materials

He has no right to remove their rubbish, in your eyes.

Yet they have every right of leaving their rubbish (tarp, rope).


Come on mate pick a standard and stick with it.

 

[rik_uk3]

He has no right to remove their rubbish, in your eyes.

Yet they have every right of leaving their rubbish (tarp, rope).


Come on mate pick a standard and stick with it.

What are you on about? Builders tarp and rope? They built a shelter with it, may have planned to come back and use it? May have left it for others to use, you don't know, I don't know but its not our shelter is it.

Pick up real rubbish, I'm all for that, but leave shelters alone

 

[roger-uk]

My experience with Cubs and Scouts building shelters on Scout Campsites etc [with permission] is that they take a great deal of pleasure dismantling it.

Mainly by taking a run and jump into the middle of it

 

[rik_uk3]

My experience with Cubs and Scouts building shelters on Scout Campsites etc [with permission] is that they take a great deal of pleasure dismantling it.

Mainly by taking a run and jump into the middle of it

Its YOUR shelter Roger, do as you like with it Hope you've done a risk assessment on that running and jumping

 

[cbr6fs]

What are you on about? Builders tarp and rope? They built a shelter with it, may have planned to come back and use it? May have left it for others to use, you don't know, I don't know but its not our shelter is it.

Pick up real rubbish, I'm all for that, but leave shelters alone

I'm honestly struggling to believe what i'm reading, what happened to "leave no trace"?

My experience with Cubs and Scouts building shelters on Scout Campsites etc [with permission] is that they take a great deal of pleasure dismantling it.

Mainly by taking a run and jump into the middle of it

Hat off to you Roger

 

[santaman2000]

I'm honestly struggling to believe what i'm reading, what happened to "leave no trace"?......

Frankly, I grew up before that fantasy. BUT. I do agree with "not causing unneccessary damage." It just seems many on the thread have different levels of tolerance towards these shelters.

 

[rik_uk3]

I'm honestly struggling to believe what i'm reading, what happened to "leave no trace"?




Hat off to you Roger

Read the thread, a good point was made about leaving shelters in situ. Leave no trace is a fine ideal, one I hold with but there is a difference between cleaning up your rubbish and somebody spending time building a shelter only to have some high and mighty 'right on' bushcrafter come along and tear it down because they 'think' it might fall down or the builders used a builders tarp and nylon rope.

Go have a couple of metaxa's and chill out.

 

[cbr6fs]

Read the thread, a good point was made about leaving shelters in situ. Leave no trace is a fine ideal, one I hold with but there is a difference between cleaning up your rubbish and somebody spending time building a shelter only to have some high and mighty 'right on' bushcrafter come along and tear it down because they 'think' it might fall down or the builders used a builders tarp and nylon rope.

Go have a couple of metaxa's and chill out.

Couple of things you should consider.

1/ If the shelter is set up on public land then it's illegal to camp there in the vast vast majority of cases (in England)

2/ If it's on public land and is conspicuous (which lets face it, it must be if we're talking about it) then it's basically a red rag to a bull for locals to complain, gangs are going to be attracted to it like moths to a flame, dogs are going to pee up it, rubbish is going to get dumped in and/or around it

3/ IF it does fall as some kids are playing in it there will no doubt be a national uproar spearheaded by the Mail or some such

4/ It's going to be a fire hazard in summer

5/ Again if it's conspicuous then it's the sort of thing you really don't want to be seeing when out enjoying the outdoors


If it's next to a Scouts hut or if a parky or ranger agrees beforehand i could understand a temporary shelter being made and left up for a week or so.
If you have a permission, of course your going to make your spot better for you, keep firewood dry etc.

On public land though a conspicuous shelter should be taken down after use.
If i come across one then i report it to the ranger or police, if they do nothing in say 1 week then i tear it down and cart away anything that doesn't grow in the area (i.e. tarps, ropes etc)

But then i pick up, bag and take home my dogs poop, my poop and any rubbish i see while out hiking camping as i think that's the "responsible" thing to do.

 

[BillyBlade]

I built shelters over a year ago, one in each of the regular places I go to. Both are still standing, both used paracord, deadfall and discarded heavy duty polythene farmers sacks I'd found just dumped at the roadside. You cant see the sacks though, they are under a weave of natural cover, hence nothing stands out. They just help with waterproofing.

Anyways, in that time, two things have happened. One, is that at one of the sites, I had an old boy, nearly 90, chat for a couple of hours about his time in WW2 as a commando and shelters of that type they were shown how to build. He was happy to see it, it brought back some good memories for him. We shared a brew and a ration pack, and if I ever get to that age, I hope I'm as spry as he is and as handy with a shotgun with the senses to boot. Over the year he has turned into a good mate, and I actually commented on this thread to him before I sat down to write this post, and as he said, he grew up in the hungry 30's, when people had a bit more to concern themselves with.

At the other site, the one that isn't as hard to find, I've met people using it to shelter from the rain when out walking there dogs in the forest numerous times. Again, good banter has ensued. No one has commented negatively on it's presence. Most noteworthy is that one of those I've taken to see that structure is actually a forest ranger, her husband-to-be works beside my wife, and she knows I'm keen on the outdoors. It wasn't in a wood that she patrols, but she commented how well it had been built and how handy it was. Certainly no reproach or reprimand

Frankly, I'd be pretty cheesed off of they were ripped down after a week because someone, one person, doesn't agree with them. They harm no-one, and have been positive for many.

IMHO, unless you actually own that wood, no singular individual has the right to willfully destroy a structure that someone else has taken time to build, and built right.

Thankfully, wood-walking people seem a bit more tolerant and chilled out where I live, and thank God for that.

 

[cbr6fs]

IMHO, unless you actually own that wood, no singular individual has the right to willfully destroy a structure that someone else has taken time to build, and built right.

By the same logic though, what gives YOU the right to wilfully build a shelter in a wood that you do not own or have permission to build on?

 

[BillyBlade]

Two thoughts then really.

1) I'm not building modern art, I'm building something that is both useful and natural in its construction and in its enviroment.

Regards one of the structures, I do have permission, albeit retrospectively admittedly, from the wood owner.

2) Well, for some folk I suppose it's easier to destroy something thats harmless and beneficial to others than it is for them to accept it doesn't make a blind bit of difference to them or their lives either way, but just just because it doesn't fit in with what there idea is of what a woodland should be or what should be found in it. That comment about 'cheap blue rope and builders tarp' well, seriously? Reeked of the very worst kind of snobbery, and I truly hate snobbery, both conventional and inverse.

All this despite the fact UK woodland is nowadays as artificial a place compared to hundreds of years ago as a McMansion is next to a Georgian townhouse.

All I've got to say on the subject really.

 

[EarthToSimon]

That comment about 'cheap blue rope and builders tarp' well, seriously? Reeked of the very worst kind of snobbery, and I truly hate snobbery, both conventional and inverse.

Sorry that's offended you, I was just trying to be accurate, I don't have anything wrong with the blue rope (I use it as a ridge line) it doesn't stretch too much and doesn't really wick water that much. And I use a builders tarp for a ground sheet sometimes when ground dwelling

The shelter had been left abandoned for weeks. I checked it quite daily as its visible from the raised cycle track I over to walk the bus stop. If it had been para cord and a DD tarp I would still have taken it down.

It's just arguing for the sake of it now and the threads going no where, can we put it to rest please?

 

[Dartmoor navigator]

It's just arguing for the sake of it now and the threads going no where, can we put it to rest please?

Absolutely

 

[cbr6fs]

Two thoughts then really.

1) I'm not building modern art, I'm building something that is both useful and natural in its construction and in its enviroment.

Regards one of the structures, I do have permission, albeit retrospectively admittedly, from the wood owner.

2) Well, for some folk I suppose it's easier to destroy something thats harmless and beneficial to others than it is for them to accept it doesn't make a blind bit of difference to them or their lives either way, but just just because it doesn't fit in with what there idea is of what a woodland should be or what should be found in it. That comment about 'cheap blue rope and builders tarp' well, seriously? Reeked of the very worst kind of snobbery, and I truly hate snobbery, both conventional and inverse.

All this despite the fact UK woodland is nowadays as artificial a place compared to hundreds of years ago as a McMansion is next to a Georgian townhouse.

All I've got to say on the subject really.

As with most things in life, it really comes down to how you look at things.

If i see someone erecting a shelter and leaving it standing long term, my thoughts are:

1/ How can someone be as arrogant as to think that a public land is their playground to do as they feel

2/ How can someone be so ill informed to think that a lean-to shelter is going to be anywhere near as efficient as even a basic tarp

3/ How can someone be so selfish that they then leave this monstrosity

4/ How can someone be so bone idle as to not at least pack it down when they've finished with it


If they were any use i could sort of understand it and sympathise, as it is though the type of shelters i've seen built are ugly, an eyesore PLUS the over no real protection unless they're WAY over built.

This is 2012, we have tarps, tents, bivvy bags, hammocks even emergency bags if needed so building a shelter and leaving it up on public land or private land without permission is just a 100% selfish, irresponsible and arrogant.

I can understand if your out with kids, how building a shelter is fun, i agree.
But it's also our job as a responsible adult to teach tech them how to be responsible kids by not ruining it for others and leaving a place how we found it.

 

[Laurentius]

Now here is the really difficult one. If you are on public land how do you know for sure the shelter you don't like had permission or not, and even more so if you are on private land because the shelter might be more legit than you are. It's a bit of a moral maze really and I don't the answer.

 

[EarthToSimon]

Now here is the really difficult one. If you are on public land how do you know for sure the shelter you don't like had permission or not, and even more so if you are on private land because the shelter might be more legit than you are. It's a bit of a moral maze really and I don't the answer.

What's classed as public land? I've always thought most of the land in England is owned by someone or something like the coal board, who own a lot of the land around me.

 

[cbr6fs]

Now here is the really difficult one. If you are on public land how do you know for sure the shelter you don't like had permission or not, and even more so if you are on private land because the shelter might be more legit than you are. It's a bit of a moral maze really and I don't the answer.

Good question

My first port of call would be the park ranger, parky or whoever maintained the site to see if they can be bothered to do anything about it.

If not and if the shelter was there used for a few weeks then i'd just knock it down, permission or not.

Might seem a bit excessive but i'm sick and tired of these arrogant selfish folks treating our outdoors like they own the place and bugger the consequences.

Fire scars, tarps used then dumped, burnt beer cans and bottles, used condoms, all things i've seen around these shelters and they scar the land for years after.

If i see a crisp packet when i'm i'll pick it up take it home and throw it in the rubbish.
If my dog does a poop on the mountain, i'll bag it seal it, take it home and dispose of it.

If i see a builders sheet of course i'll remove it, why not?



Yesterday i retrieved what must be 30 meters of tape that mountain bikers had used to mark out a course over 4 months ago and just left it.


People just don't seem to care now days, they'll use the outdoors exactly how they want and bugger the consequences.


If we all started going out and building shelters how long do you think it would be before they'd be an outrage and massive clamp down?

One person builds one of these scars on the environment and leaves it up on a farmers land and leaves it up.
6 months later a responsible wild camper approaches the farmer to ask permission to camp in hos woods and gets a mouthful about "his types".

It's not exactly a dramatic exaggeration is it, it's happening already.


And for what, what exactly does this selfish person gain by leaving their shelter up?

Absolutely nothing.
If it's raining then chances are they've taken a tarp anyways, if it's not raining then a few branches leaned against a tree aren't going to do much in our UK climate.

Unless someone can offer me something that carries more weight than the feeble excuses i've read so far, i cannot see any gain in leaving up one of these monstrosities on public or land you don't have permission for.


We used to have hippies on our farm years and years ago.
They kept to themselves, cleaned up after themselves and bought milk from us.

After they left another lot came and absolutely destroyed the place, they cut branches off a 200+ year old oak tree that destroyed it,

Next time....... nope there was no next time.

If your wild camping in England then you have a social responsibility to us fellow bushcrafters to set a good impression.
Good impression = leave no trace


In my opinion.