National Trust land

[Emma]

In fact, just to further the point tenbears10 made about wandering around buildings - building on land is an extremely unsustainable method of using it, and yet you don't wander around properties that landlords own solely for profit?

 

[bambodoggy]

Lol...and just to hammer you a little more Mate.....would you wonder through commercial properties such as warehouses....they're on "land" after all or do you just think you have a right to walk on "pretty" looking land?

Sorry Mate, we're all giving you a hard time but I hope you understand none of us are being horrid to you....we're just taking exception to your views and trying to understand them....

Friends still.....?

 

[tenbears10]

I agree with Bambodoggy it is nothing personal I just want to understand.

Bill

 

[Emma]

Yeah, I'm coming across as attacking you rather, I'm sorry. I don't mean to attack you, but it is a raw nerve for me at least...
I'll also admit that I don't want to understand your view (I think I do) so much as get you to stop trespassing because no matter how responsible you are, the people who follow may not be, and it is those people who... well maybe I won't continue the sentence because I'm wound up enough already.

 

[Fluxus]

"Maybe if there hadn't been so many muppets being a pain on private land in the past the owners wouldn't be so stroppy about it now".

Since feudal times landowners have been more than stroppy about ordinary people acting like muppets - collecting firewood, foraging and fishing on ' their land. What was 'common land' was almost all enclosed by the 19th century and now in Britain 70% of land is still owned by less than 1% of the population. The issue is not about what people do or whether they are resposible or not - its about access. We had access and it was stolen from our ancestors by people who already had too much. That situation still exists but now seems to be acceptable to most people as generally most folks in UK are not living on the breadline.

Walking through some woods or around the edge of a cornfield bears no comparison to driving someone elses car or eating their food without permission. Whether the land is in organic production or not is irrelevant - tresspass is not some sort of vindictive retribution against the landowner for their behaviour - Its totally natural because, I say it again the land really is ours.
The line has to be drawn somewhere and I tend to concur with economist JK Galbraith that no one 'needs' anything more than 10 times what anyone else has. So as an anarchist I moderate my own behaviour cotingent to the circumstances I am in - I am not responsible for other 'trespassers' rudeness or irresponsible behaviour - they are.

We could start to go on about lots of other associated topics - it all links together - but its all going off topic a bit.

Terra Prima
Flux

 

[RobertsonPau]

I think the point that most people are trying to make is that whether the law is right or wrong it is the LAW. I agree with a lot of your sentiment, and have been involved with protests for land access, but trespassing and upsetting the land owners will not necessarily change the law, I know it did inthe late 40's and 50's, and so the NT was born! As bushcrafters we have a responsibility to present ourselves in the best possible light to the public at large and subsequently their MP's that they will complain to when they are not happy with our activities. Then the MP's vote and we suddenly find that we are not allowed to go anywhere or do anything without permits and 'official permission'. I know it's a pain having to bow and scrape to landowners whose great-grandfather had mine clapped in irons for taking a pheasant to feed his family, but the way to beat them is from the inside, not over the head.

Sorry got carried away towards the end.

Edit: Apologies, I know you are not suggesting assaulting anyone, as I said I got a bit carried away.

Paul

 

[Emma]

I am not responsible for other 'trespassers' rudeness or irresponsible behaviour - they are.

Quite right.
You're responsible for them having followed you there in the first place.

 

[Emma]

most folks in UK are not living on the breadline.

No. Very true. And yet I am almost permanently hungry because I can't afford enough food, but I still seem to hold my view on this.

People being muppets on private land nowadays, as experienced by my mum, is vandalism, we asked the police and some of the stuff they are doing is illegal, not counting the trespassing part (and I might add that she's not too bothered about that, it's what the people get up to when they have trespassed).
I can't comment on what people do on other areas of private land, but going on country lanes and footpaths, littering and tipping is high on the list.

 

[Kath]

Can I please remind everyone to keep the thread on topic, which was regarding activities on National Trust land, rather than personal beliefs about trespassing on private land, political beliefs etc.

 

[tenbears10]

ok to get back on track who can tell me:

Is national trust land public or private (this affects what rights people have on it)?

If you think it is one or the other please say why and offer evidence.

My own view is that it is very much private which means that it must be treated just like any other privately owned land and not grouped with public land when we talk about what activities are allowed or not. I think in general bushcraft can only be undertaken on land in this country with permission, all land is owned by someone and there is no right, to my knowledge, which allows camping and lighting fires etc. even if there is a right to roam.

I hope this is on topic and not straying from the point again.

Bill

 

[Andy]

It's private land. They own it. Pay money for land the same way other people do. They allow people to go on some bits free of charge but others you have to pay for. They is a walk near home that they charge a penny for you to walk on and don't let you walk one day a year. This is to stop it becoming a public right of way

 

[leon-1]

ok to get back on track who can tell me:

Is national trust land public or private (this affects what rights people have on it)?

If you think it is one or the other please say why and offer evidence.

My own view is that it is very much private which means that it must be treated just like any other privately owned land and not grouped with public land when we talk about what activities are allowed or not. I think in general bushcraft can only be undertaken on land in this country with permission, all land is owned by someone and there is no right, to my knowledge, which allows camping and lighting fires etc. even if there is a right to roam.

I hope this is on topic and not straying from the point again.

Bill

Bill from the sound of it The National Trust holds land privately, they do state that most land held is in perpetuity (definition of perpetuity=[adv] for an indefinitely long time; "bequeathed to the nation in perpetuity).

Looking at this link tells you a little. You will also find that NT land may also have byelaws protecting it and that these byelaws can vary from area to area, so you may be able to do this on one area of NT land, but not on another.

On the linked page look at the statement second from the bottom, even if you own land which is on an area protected by NT, as the landowner it would appear that you have few rights.

 

[tenbears10]

Thanks guys, so as I suspected you have no more rights on National Trust land than any other privately owned land. Asking for permission is the only way to go and I don't think you will have much luck because if they let one person have access and allow you to camp everyone will try and do it.

 

[Fluxus]

Quite right.
You're responsible for them having followed you there in the first place.

Nah - I'm afraid not. I don't claim to be setting an example to anyone. Assuming other folks can't take responsibility for their own actions is patronising to them in the extreme.

BTW Kath - I know we strayed from the thread title but conversations do this - I think it is healthy and interesting to have wide ranging discussion about such basic fundamental (philosophical rather than political) issues.

Cheers
Flux

 

[Tantalus]

looked up the national trust (not scotland) web page

.........................and found this

There are at least 50 camping and touring caravan sites throughout England, Wales and Northern Ireland. Some sites are managed by the Trust itself or are leased to the Caravan Club; others are provided by the Trust's tenant farmers. An indication of facilities, opening times, charges and any particular restrictions is given here, but you should check with each site's specified contact for further details (especially if planning a recreational activity).

/snip

The Trust does not generally allow camping on non-recognised sites without permission. 'Wild camping', where permitted, should be out of sight of the public highway, entail only one-night stopovers with a maximum of two campers and leave no trace of their presence.

http://www.nationaltrust.org.uk/main/holidays/camping/default.asp

what more is there to say ?

Tant

 

[bambodoggy]

Nah - I'm afraid not. I don't claim to be setting an example to anyone. Assuming other folks can't take responsibility for their own actions is patronising to them in the extreme.

BTW Kath - I know we strayed from the thread title but conversations do this - I think it is healthy and interesting to have wide ranging discussion about such basic fundamental (philosophical rather than political) issues.

Cheers
Flux

Flux, I think what Emma means is that people see you walking across it and then think it's ok to do so....surely you can see that point? It's not a question of whether you are setting an example or not simply that people see one person doing it and then think it's ok for them to do it. I'd also suggest she's trying to be diplomatic saying she doesn't think you alone are causing problems but it's the ones after you.

Emma...if I've spoken for you out of turn I'm sorry but that sonded to me what you were trying to put across....

Anyway, this thread has been put back on track....shall we stop the arguements, agree to differ on this and leave it at that? :wave:

 

[Emma]

Flux, I think what Emma means is that people see you walking across it and then think it's ok to do so....surely you can see that point? It's not a question of whether you are setting an example or not simply that people see one person doing it and then think it's ok for them to do it. I'd also suggest she's trying to be diplomatic saying she doesn't think you alone are causing problems but it's the ones after you.

That's exactly what I'm trying to say, thanks for putting it into better words than I can bambodoggy.
Anyway, I'll stop posting about it here, sorry for disrupting the thread everyone, normal service will resume just as soon as I've hit the reply button.

 

[Moonraker]

Sticking to the topic of this thread...

The following is not quoted as fact or for/against any one view but some info which I wanted to find out more about and thought it may be of interest in view of this discussion. The best way to be sure of what is acceptable is to contact the various bodies direct. I find they are usually very helpful once you get through to the right person.

You can check out details of the National Trusts own guidelines for recreational activities on their land here:

RECREATIONAL ACTIVITIES AT NATIONAL TRUST PROPERTIES - GUIDING PRINCIPLES AND GOOD PRACTICE

From this more specific info on wild camping:

Guiding principles

1. The National Trust welcomes, promotes and publicises camping on recognised sites managed by itself and others.

2. There is a presumption against camping on non-recognised sites without permission. This presumption is waived in certain circumstances and areas, eg in the Lake District, in upland areas above 450 metres out of sight of the public highway, to allow the wilderness experience to be enjoyed.

3. 'Wild camping', where tolerated, should only involve one night stop-overs, a maximum of two campers and leave no trace of its presence.

4. Organised groups, eg Duke of Edinburgh Award Scheme, should consult with local National Trust contacts in advance of a visit to determine if there are special arrangements for groups of this type.

So, they give one example of where it is tolerated. It would be useful to contact them and get more specific confirmation of exactly where else it is tolerated.

On that site they refer to the very good Mountaineering Council of Scotland (1998). 'Wild Camping - A Guide to Good Practice.' M C of S, Perth, Scotland.

You can view it here ( actually more up to date than the publication)

MCofS Guide To Wild Camping

I personally think this is an excellent guide to how people should consider their environment and others in wild areas.

Remember that the law is just changing in Scotland allowing much greater 'legal' right to roam through the The Land Reform (Scotland) Act 2003 and related Scottish Outdoor Access Code. It is different legislation to the 'Rgiht To Roam' legislation in England. You can view both those documents online (search Google). They comment on this and clarify the legal position here:

CAMPING AND THE LAW

The Land Reform (Scotland) Act 2003 and Scottish Outdoor Access Code will be enacted in late 2004 or early 2005 with a clarification of the law relating to wild camping. A clause in the Trespass (Scotland) Act 1865 that made it an offence to encamp on someone else's property, has been amended to give a statutory right to camp when done by a person in the exercise of the access rights created by the Land Reform (Scotland) Act 2003. The Scottish Outdoor Access Code will recommend guidelines for responsible behaviour, which in terms of wild camping is likely to state that it will not be responsible to camp in a field containing a crop or livestock.

The Trespass (Scotland) Act of 1865 makes it an offence to encamp or light fires on private land without the consent of the landowner. It has not been used recently against hillwalkers or climbers, but the MCofS believes it should be amended so that responsible wild camping is no longer a criminal offence.

These rights will extend to lands owned by the National Trust for Scotland ( there are general exceptions to these rights and you need to check locally, like byelaws etc.)

It might help to clarify the legal position on Trespass and Wild Camping which seems to be a bit misunderstood. Trespass is not a criminal act! It is a civil manner between the landowner and you. For this reason a sign which states “Trespassers will be prosecuted” are generally meaningless ( as prosecution is a criminal process). It is also why the police are reluctant to become involved. As it stands the landowner or his representative can use 'reasonable' force to eject you from his land.

Just because you are on a 'Public Right of Way' such as a footpath does not mean you can do anything. If you act 'irresponsibly' for instance letting your dog chase sheep or damage crops this can be considered a trespass and also be sued for damages.

This is what the Ramblers Association says (I have highlighted the more relevant parts):

Wild Camping

In England and Wales you have no general right to camp and if you do so you may be trespassing, unless you use an official site or first obtain the landowner’s permission. In practice responsible “wild” camping may be tolerated in upland areas, particularly when you are a long way from alternative accommodation, though strictly speaking you are still trespassing and could be moved on. Some upland areas have particular sites where camping is informally tolerated. The best approach is to enquire locally or contact information sources such as national park authorities in advance.

In Scotland responsible wild camping is permitted in certain circumstances under the Scottish Outdoor Access Code. For advice on how to camp responsibly, contact the Mountaineering Council of Scotland.

Trespass

If you are on private land where (or when) access rights or other public access arrangements don't apply, or you fail to comply with the conditions of access rights, for example by acting irresponsibly, the landowner could claim you were trespassing. In most cases this is a civil rather than a criminal matter, so signs stating “Trespassers will be prosecuted” are normally meaningless.

In England and Wales, the landowner can use reasonable force, such as taking you by the arm, to get you to leave. In Scotland, the Outdoor Access Code advises landowners never to use force. A landowner could also seek an injunction or, in Scotland, an interdict against you returning to the same land, or attempt to sue you for damages, but the lack of cases suggests that this is unlikely in the case of harmless recreational use of land.

The exception is on certain special areas such as land around railways, airports, ports and military land, where it’s a criminal offence to walk without permission: such land is usually fenced off and clearly marked.

Read more at:

Ramblers Association - Access for walkers in Britain

Don't forget that thanks to rights going back to medieval times we now have in England and Wales some 225,000km/140,000 miles of off-road routes classed as Public Rights of Way. That is a right which many other European countries do not have.

Lets hope that we can work together and build on the new The Countryside and Rights of Way Act, 2000 and the 'Right To Roam' and perhaps one day we will have similar rights as they now have in Scotland and historically enjoyed in Scandinavia with the wonderful:

Allemansrätten

Cheers

Simon

 

[Tantalus]

moonraker, i am almost certain that the law in scotland has indeed been changed to allow fires now as welll as camping

there is a thread here somewhere where the links are available

Tant

 

[Tantalus]

from p 52 http://www.snh.org.uk/pdfs/access/ApprovedCode050604.pdf

Lighting fires

Responsible behaviour by the public.........

Wherever possible, use a stove rather than light an open fire. If you do wish to
light an open fire, keep it small, under control and supervised – fires that get out
of control can cause major damage, for which you might be liable. Never light
an open fire during prolonged dry periods or in areas such as forests, woods,
farmland, or on peaty ground or near to buildings or in cultural heritage sites
where damage can be easily caused.Heed all advice at times of high risk.
Remove all traces of an open fire before you leave.

Responsible behaviour by land managers.........

At times of drought, work with your local authority (fire
services) to inform people of the high risks involved.

and p 64

Lighting fires Trespass (Scotland)
Act 1865
(Section 3)

You are guilty of an offence if you light a fire:
􀂃 on or near any private road
􀂃 on enclosed or cultivated land
􀂃 in or near any plantation
without the consent of the owner or land manager.

sorry page numbers are the adobe acrobat page numbers but ya can work it out

Tant