National Trust land

[maddave]

My only dealings with the NT were unpleasant. The attitude seems to be "Give us your money and we'll suffer you as long as you've got your hand in your pocket.... Otherwise GET ORF MY LAND!!" :?:

 

[bushblade]

So no camping and no fires... oh dear one very guilty person here.
Round here we just have a few small plots that I imagine don't see a ranger from one year to the next... but I suppose there is always the risk.
In that case, where is it legal to camp and have fires? Surely everyone here doesn't own huge tracts of private land? :?: And how do I tell what's public land that I can do most anything on and what's not on a map? :?:

Just thought I'd point out that the newer OS maps have public access land highlited in yellow. OS are slowly changing all the maps to this new layout (not all done yet).

 

[leon-1]

You will also find that for each and every area that you go to it will probably have local byelaws that will require to be adhered to, you may find that although there is nothing stated about fire or where you can camp by the normal laws that we all adhere to there may be a byelaw that will make it against the law.

I know that Dartmoor certainly has more than one set of regulations to adhere to and fire is covered under the byelaw as well as other areas of law and codes of practice

 

[R-Bowskill]

I thought I'd made it clear that I was refering to "Public" land such as NT land and the section six was for if being descrete failed. ie If anyone saw that I was camping there. Rather than on "private" land.

I don't seek confrontation but with a 'jobsworth' knowing my rights tends to make them a bit more reasonable.

Most of bushcraft is actually illegal without express permission, Stepping off a footpath is tresspass, picking a few berries or mushrooms is theft, trapping or fishing is poaching, lighting a fire is arson, having a knife is carrying an offensive weapon etc but this is thought acceptable by those who critisize me for carrying one piece of paper.

As for where I've been, The Peak district, Yorkshire, Ireland North and south, the Negev desert, Scotland as far as the Assynt peninsular on the west and a few miles south of Helmsdale on the East coasts. The southern uplands, Cornwall, Bavaria, Nottinghamshire and Norfolk.

I hope this clarifies what I was saying and answers some of the critisisms made against me.

 

[bambodoggy]

I don't think it's a bad ace to have up your sleeve for the jobsworths out there....

Where can I get a copy? ):

 

[Ed]

picking a few berries or mushrooms is theft,

ummm.... no its not... actually it specificly states in the Theft Act 1968 that you can forage Fruit, fungi, flowers and foliage (commonly known as the 4 F's).... its just taking the roots which is theft.

Section 4. Property
.....
(3) A person who picks mushrooms growing wild on any land, or who picks flowers, fruit or foliage from a plant growing wild on any land, does not (although not in possession of the land) steal what he picks, unless he does it for reward or for sale or other commercial purpose.

We ask all those using BCUK to stay within the law. If you are caught practicing bushcraft illegally then you will face the law to whatever extent they wish to persue it.

Please feel free to ask about what certain laws are etc... but please (I've had to delete a couple of posts) do not ask for excuses to use or talk about doing bushcraft in a clandestine manner and not getting caught!!!

Please keep to the forum rules and the law


Ed

 

[bambodoggy]

Please feel free to ask about what certain laws are etc... but please (I've had to delete a couple of posts) do not ask for excuses to use or talk about doing it clandestine and not getting caught!!!

Please keep to the forum rules and the lawEd

Ed, can't and wouldn't argue with your last statement in any way whatsoever but the bit above....
Surely if you have the legal right to be there then having the document is perfectly reasonable, as Bowskill says, you are simply using it to prove your legal right to be there to an uninformed jobsworth or warden? The way I read his post was like that anyway...NOT to use it as an "access all areas pass", which clearly would be unacceptable and very bad manners.

As it happens I am allowed to be where I go and allowed to camp over night and have fires but I do appreciate that I am very lucky in this respect.

As I've said before in other posts I tend to do things in a discreet (rather than clandestine way) but that's only because I don't want to upset uneducated people (joe public see's me all in green with bushcraft knife on my belt etc) and NOT because I shouldn't be there doing what I'm doing....

It's a tough one to sum up.... I'm not trying to be a pain in the bum, I'm just interested in my rights.

 

[Ed]

but the bit above....
Surely if you have the legal right to be there then having the document is perfectly reasonable,

I Agree. I have no problem with that..... you are within the law.... its not an excuse its your legal right!!!!

as Bowskill says, you are simply using it to prove your legal right to be there to an uninformed jobsworth or warden? The way I read his post was like that anyway...NOT to use it as an "access all areas pass", which clearly would be unacceptable and very bad manners.

All I ask is for you all to stay within the law. I don't see your problem with my above post?

If you have the legal right then it is not an excuse... you are within the law. The post above was just a reminder to stay within the law.... and know your law.....


Ed

Ed

 

[bambodoggy]

That's cool Eds, I wasn't being funny with you at all (hard to get emotion across in words even with icons).... I was just making comment on it.

It was just that poor Bowskill seemed to get a hammering further back in the thread for what he said and I hadn't read it that way....when I read his post it make perfect sence

 

[Fluxus]

Respect to Bowskill - my experiences with section 6 notices is a bit different. Police have argued that a tent is not a dwelling and even if it is you have to have spent the night there before the notice comes into effect. So ok if you are rumbled in the morning rather than when you pitch camp for the night.

I Trespass as a matter of principle and believe we all have a right if not a duty to challenge the ownership rights of any piece of non residential land in the uk. If I meet an irate landowner when out walking, I will politely explain my position and move on if they are aggressive (often!).

I saw a poster once with something like the following dialogue on it:

GET OFF MY LAND!
Why?
Because it's mine.
Why is it yours?
Because it was my fathers before me
And why was it his?
Because it was his fathers before him
And why was it his?
Because he fought for it
All right then I'll fight you for it.

'The land is ours'

 

[bambodoggy]

A bit of an extream approach I think....and bear in mind R-Bowskill was ONLY talking about public land....not privately owned land.

I can't condone tresspass in any way, I understand and agree with your stance but it's just not for me.... :wave:

There was a bit in the film "Crocodile Dundee" when she asks him where he stands on land ownership and he replies that it's pointless as the land belows to nobody and gives the example "It's like two flee's argueing over who owns the dog they live on...neither do and the dog will do what it wants anyway", I've always thought this was very true but as I said I can't condone tresspass.

Maybe if there hadn't been so many muppets being a pain on private land in the past the owners wouldn't be so stroppy about it now.
Also bear in mind that this is often (not always but often) the way they make their living....I'd get stroppy if people effected how I provide for my family too!

Now....forcing my way through offical rights of way when land owners have closed them with no good cause.....that's a different matter but not one I've come across so far...

As Eds says, stay within the law and you can't go far wrong ):

 

[Emma]

I Trespass as a matter of principle and believe we all have a right if not a duty to challenge the ownership rights of any piece of non residential land in the uk.

OK, I can see where you're coming from. But I just cannot agree with you.
Landowners have some damn good reasons for wanting to keep people off their land, for example, crops, interfering with livestock, dogs chasing livestock, dogs fouling the area, fence interference, rubbish, land used to shoot bunnies or foxes and they don't want to be done for manslaughter, introduction of diseases (ie foot-and-mouth), introduction of weeds (seeds on clothing), and that's all I can think of as a layperson. If someone has worked hard all their life to be able to afford to buy their own area of land, of course they're not going to want someone else walking all over it - that's like you doing all the work for a degree and someone else getting the piece of paper, or someone else repeatedly taking your new car out for a spin. If they're renting it then you can be absolutely certain they're working hard to be able to keep the land, and what if their landlord will chuck them off because he sees trespassers?
And how do you define 'residential' anyway? The patch of land that a residential building is built on? The garden? Some people don't have a garden, some have on that is 6ftx6ft, my parents have half an acre, and some people have several acres. Some people buy a house with a 6ftx6ft garden but also buy a bit of land adjacent, is that included or not?
Are allotments included in residential land or not? They're not gardens, but I certianly wouldn't go walking straight over them.

I'm afraid you've slightly hit a raw nerve here because my mother has been having a lot of trouble with dog-walkers in the field she rents for the horses. Details on request, but she is abiding by the law and has had ill horses, glue in her padlocks and a hate campaign against her because of it.

Just because you are responsible in your use of the countryside, whether you are there legally or illegally, doesn't mean that other people who go where they've seen you go will also be as responsible as you.

 

[arctic hobo]

This reminds me of the story of the first white man in South Africa. He gets off his boat, and finds the tribe's leader, and says to him "I want to buy your land". The leader laughs and laughs, and says "Don't be ridiculous, do you buy the trees or the stars?".
Unfortunately the white man came back with rifles and killed them all :shock:

 

[tenbears10]

I thought I'd made it clear that I was refering to "Public" land such as NT land and the section six was for if being descrete failed. ie If anyone saw that I was camping there. Rather than on "private" land.

Can someone explain what makes National Trust land public? Bowskill, I'm not questioning you specifically I just don't see why it is public.

As far as I know the National Trust is one of the biggest private landowners in the country they might charge you to visit their land or allow you to do so for free but it is not public.


As for the tresspass point that Fluxus brings up, I'm with Emma. It is your land because you own it in exactly the same way as you can't use my car or walk into my house and make yourself a cup of tea. I own it thats what makes it mine. As a society we are long past fighting someone because you want their land (or we should be).

Having said that I can never understand people who have a 'No Turning Private Drive' sign it makes me want to turn in the driveway, so perhaps I do see where you are coming from.

 

[Fluxus]

If someone has worked hard all their life to be able to afford to buy their own area of land, of course they're not going to want someone else walking all over it

That is exactly the issue - Once upon a time all of these islands were just land. Humans colonised that land and used it for their livelihoods - at some point all land that is owned has been stolen - usually by force from the common people of the island. It is my view that Land rights have got very little to do with responsible use - the majority of agricultural land in the UK is owned by its users for profit and used in an extremely unsustainable and socially irresponsible way. I'm afraid Horsiculture usually falls into that category as well - does your mum use ivermectin? if so then I'm sure she has a problem with dog walkers (it can remain in equine faeces and kill dogs). if the land used was stolen then we all have a right to take it back. I don't trash fields of corn or leave gates open because I'm not spiteful but I maintain my right to walk across whatever countryside I like. Those who treat the earth badly,whether farmers , dog walkers, or other 'recreational users are a problem for all of us irrespective of whether we 'own ' land or not.
My rant ends here - now rip me to pieces....!

 

[bambodoggy]

Just because you are responsible in your use of the countryside, whether you are there legally or illegally, doesn't mean that other people who go where they've seen you go will also be as responsible as you.

As I said below "Maybe if there hadn't been so many muppets being a pain on private land in the past the owners wouldn't be so stroppy about it now".

 

[Andy]

I'm very against tresspassing for the Same reasons bottom Emma pointed out. I've had to deal with a few and in some cases peole I've known that have had the view of "I'll go over that land why should they stop me"

 

[bambodoggy]

I maintain my right to walk across whatever countryside I like.

I think the issue I have with your statement above is that legally you don't have a "right" to walk on this land, you have a "wish" or "desire" to walk across it and that's very different.

Fluxus, in an ideal world I agree with you totally but we don't live in an ideal world and surely you can see that if others have been before and caused trouble the landowners will be hostile to others coming after them whether or not they cause damage?

Bill, as far as I know the section 6 does apply to private land too but Bowskill was just saying that he only uses it on public land....not that that quite answers your quirey.

 

[Emma]

OK, a quick search for ivermectin reveals it as being used in wormers and mite powder, is that the stuff you mean?
Yes she worms the horses, but makes an effort to clear away all their droppings. That was until someone put glue in the wheel clamp on the trailer and she understandably got behind on it then. Then had to deal with more hatred because she wasn't removing the droppings from the field, just piling them up in a heap...

As I said I understand where you're coming from, but laws on land ownership aren't likely to change to ever stop anyone legally owning a bit of land. Once upon a time everyone shared the tools they made and the food they found. Does that mean I can nip round to your place, borrow your knife and remove half the contents of your fridge? And I'd love to have a bit of free food, being a student and all.

So I repeat what I said before: Just because you are responsible in your use of the countryside, whether you are there legally or illegally, doesn't mean that other people who go where they've seen you go will also be as responsible as you.

And repeat bambobodoggy's comment as well: "Maybe if there hadn't been so many muppets being a pain on private land in the past the owners wouldn't be so stroppy about it now"

 

[tenbears10]

Fluxus, how do you make the destinction between owning land just as land and building on it? I assume you don't see it as your right to walk around any building you chose so why do you think it is your right to walk around someones land? I don't think you can justify the action by saying:

majority of agricultural land in the UK is owned by its users for profit and used in an extremely unsustainable and socially irresponsible way. I'm afraid Horsiculture usually falls into that category as well

poor land use is a valid problem in this country but how do you know if it is an organic farm which you want to tresspass on or not? Do you research the ownership and farming practices before you go for a walk?

I'm not really having a go I just want to see why you hold these views. There are many other issues I will get more worked up about but that is probably because I don't own any land other than a bit of garden