Mugginses out in the hills

[Stoners]

Years ago I used to be a member of the Dartmoor Rescue Group and although we were sometimes called out to experienced walkers for broken ankles etc, usually it was inexperienced people and poorly equiped groups. We never judged them or gave them a hard time, although sometimes the police, who were often involved, had a quiet word once we got them back to safety. To be fair, the weather conditions could change very quickly and catch people out.

We used to do a training walk every week and now and then we were involved in joint services rescue exercises, but the real 'shouts' were why we did it. I think most of us waited impatiently for that telephone call out and we didn't know the circumstances behind the rescue until we got to them, by which time we were focused on getting them home, safe and sound. Without the casualties we wouldn't get to do what we enjoyed. Some of the helicopter crews we knew, had a similar perspective.

Mind you, we did some rescues in shocking weather, which wasn't that enjoyable until we got back to the pub!

 

[northumbrian]

The problem is these people lie, when asked about their physical fitness, their ability to walk long distance, & how much/do you have the right gear in your pack ?. I have been told, "yes, i've been walking 5 miles every day, for the last month", "yes, i have well & truly broken my new boots in", "yes, i have hat/gloves/waterproof/water/food etc..in my pack, its just a very light pack". The last one from a guy who had nothing at all in his pack. "yes i have all the walking gear" & they turn up in trainers, T shirt & shorts in november.
Then they whinge & cry & moan & beg, borrow & steal off everyone who has prepared properly & taken the time to train for what they are going to do...needless to say i stopped doing work related trips.

On a similar note, i retired one of my dogs & advertised him on the works computer, & was approached by a huge fat woman who said she wanted him. I tried to be diplomatic in how i explained that the dog still required a huge amount of exercise(springer) i was told she did regular long walks etc.. i then lost my temper saying "looking at the size of you that is blatantly untrue ", boy did that bring down a poo storm on my head !,

Rob

pure class mate ! lmfao !

 

[Limaed]

They ain't free! They would also be a lot cheaper without paying for smokers, alcoholics and diabetics who won't conform.

I'm a fan of charging them more for these NHS services and a stupidity tax for causing swollen ankles in unsuitable areas. IF and I say if, someone pushes themselves to the limit and beyond whilst walking away from safety, then the stupidity light becomes activated and emergency services rendered should be paid for by the individual or group organiser. (That would focus the "mountain leader's" mind!).

Businesses are charged for false fire alarms, there aren't a deal of businesses who continue to have false alarms.

Just to clarify, accidents and genuine injuries/conditions that could not have been foreseen should remain free. Acts of stupidity i.e. walking up a gently sloping grassy "hill" to 2000' on a sunny dry day and then giving up because the mist has dropped, or exposure is setting in because it's raining and no equipment was taken should be paid for.

I would have to disagree although I understand the logic behind the argument. Particularly from forum's such as BCUK which has many experienced outdoor folk amongst it's membership . However in reality I think it would be near impossible to legislate without long, drawn out expensive court cases. The ramifications of which could lead to more expensive insurance, an increase in leader fees and the potential for putting people off the hills.
It's worth remembering that the MRT's work for the Police who have the responsibility to search for missing people regardless of intent. Often the MRT's are involved in looking for vulnerable people and those that would hurt themselves. One of our recent callout's was the search for a 16 year old girl who had committed suicide, do we therefore bill her parents for the recovery of her body?
The current system works very well, in fact the UK has one of the best SAR Organisations in the world. It really doesn't need to be changed.

 

[widu13]

You need to read what I wrote bud. Mental illness is NOT an act of stupidity. Please don't take what I said out of context. It's my opinion and you are more than welcome to disagree, but don't steer what I said in another direction. Ta.

 

[789987]

this forum is rather conflicted. one minute people are being slated for not getting outdoors and being slack jawed couch potatoes, the next theyre being slated for having the audacity to walk a staggering 13km in the hills.

13km? a whole 8 miles... in an organised group. insanity. if only she had bought the ray mears boxed set, then she'd have had a much better idea of what to expect on such a daring expedition.

 

[Vulpes]

I'm trying to figure out how it's possible to get ankles so swollen that you can't walk...are people so unbelievably unconditioned to using their legs!?

 

[Toddy]

Tbh I don't think I read the posts like that Widu13, but it does raise a point though. How the hang 'would' incidents be assessed ? Who would decide who should pay.........before we know it there'd be a whole raft of tribunals, lawyers, litigation specialists, insurers trying damage control.......

The present system works, but I think we do need the reminders that every time a rescue is necessary then other people risk their lives to accomplish it; and if a little forethought and prior planning reduces the number of instances that rescue is necessary, then so much the better.

cheers,
Toddy

 

[789987]

 

[Wook]

Well judge for yourselves. Here's the episode I was referring to:

http://www.channel5.com/shows/highland-emergency/episodes/episode-10-211

The sequence of relevance here starts at around the 15 minute mark.

 

[santaman2000]

Tbh I don't think I read the posts like that Widu13, but it does raise a point though. How the hang 'would' incidents be assessed ? Who would decide who should pay.........before we know it there'd be a whole raft of tribunals, lawyers, litigation specialists, insurers trying damage control.......

And after the time, trouble, and expense of a long court battle, would the victims even have the money to repay the rescue services? Or would it just be an expensive but empty victory with all the prospects of getting blood from a turnip? At $5000 per flight hour (Virginia National Guard's estimates) for helicoper costs alone then add time and fuel/supplies for the rest of the recuers and co-ordinating staff, wouldn't the cost be beyond the ability of the average victim anyway?

 

[789987]

there should be a toll booth at the entry point to the wilderness at which the compulsory insurance can be purchased via your smart phone. that'll stop these lunatics wandering off on these madcap antics.

 

[Shingsowa]

Most SAR volunteers I've spoken to over the years wouldn't want to see a pay-per-rescue system of any kind. What would be more helpful for the team members would be some reimbursement of expenses, such as fuel, personal kit, lost working hours etc.

I reckon my membership of a mountain rescue team costs me £1,000-£2,000 per year.

 

[widu13]

And after the time, trouble, and expense of a long court battle, would the victims even have the money to repay the rescue services? Or would it just be an expensive but empty victory with all the prospects of getting blood from a turnip? At $5000 per flight hour (Virginia National Guard's estimates) for helicoper costs alone then add time and fuel/supplies for the rest of the recuers and co-ordinating staff, wouldn't the cost be beyond the ability of the average victim anyway?

Simple. A court imposes a percentage financial penalty which makes the individual THINK about what they are doing. Hopefully that would encourage the brain dead to engage brain before act!

I am also not talking about paying MRT, but reimbursing costs. i.e. RAF crew are already paid for, the helicopter is already there etc. Take away the extras etc like depreciation and servicing which is all in the figures that are quoted and you end up with a real world figure.

How would it be incepted and legislated? No idea, but if someone wants to commission me to to a legislative and financial breakdown I'll do the work

The other alternative of course is a pre determined partial fixed fee. Although my whole point is that those who place themselves in danger should pay a penalty.

Yes we get NHS medical provided, but dental? If we don't look after our teeth we ARE required to pay some fees.

 

[boatman]

The costs quoted for all rescue services are irrelevant. If they were not they there would be no fire engines, helicopters or lifeboats at events like village fetes nor any traffic police vehicles giving rides round the field. In Falmouth virtually every day we can see helicopters training from any of the services and lifeboats out on exercise. The cost for all these must be the same as for emergency responses.

Again it comes as no surprise that many on this forum while wanting more freedom for themselves want to restrict, by potential charges, compulsory insurance or fitness assessment, the freedom of lesser beings.

 

[Toddy]

That's a touch unkind.
There's very few who have suggested fees for rescue, and as someone who at times can barely make it down the damned stairs in the morning, I didn't feel they were belittling any but the untruthful unfit.

I think it comes down to personal responsibility again.
Unpopular concept in this, 'Do as you want' society we live in, but there are times 'everybody' needs to stop and have a realistic think about what they're capable of managing.

It's not about limiting the challenge either, or restricting access, just a genuine, "please consider carefully", before you head out onto the hills/ moorlands, etc.

cheers,
Toddy

 

[mousey]

there should be a toll booth at the entry point to the wilderness at which the compulsory insurance can be purchased via your smart phone. that'll stop these lunatics wandering off on these madcap antics.

I didn't know there was a 'point of entry to the wilderness' - although I have a feeling I live on the otherside of it - Do I have to pay to get back in to civilisation incase I get run over by a bus?

 

[John Fenna]

I rather think that anyone with an ounce of manners would give as big a bung to the MRT that helped them as they could afford - you see nurses getting boxes of chocs from grateful patients and the occassional slab of beers for the Lifeboat crews.
It would be nice if the nitwits who get into trouble would dig into their pockets as a "thank you", buy the guys a beers or six and give a nice big donation to the MRT funds.
Perhaps part of the rescue procedure should be an education on self responsibility and the funding structure of the MRTs .... not too heavy handed but a spur to making them think about gratitude....

 

[Biker]

On a similar tack, I read an articla the other month (I think it was even posted here at BCUK) it was about a seagull caught up in branches of a tree in a town centre. It was one of those Raise your blood pressure "news" features on Yahoo or something. Anyway pedestrians were all saying something should be done for this poor bird, someone even suggested a shotgun, which made me chuckle, but eventually a vet called the Fire Brigade who turned out with a platform lift and rescued said seagull. (got ate by a cat later in the week but that's another story)

Now there are some who might say what a waste of resources, like has been said about this dopey woman with the obese ankles. But whatever the cause it was still a training exercise for all involved. I while I agree with what Wook said in the OP, someone should have assessed her correctly and she should have known her limitations. And yes it does make me seethe to see Search & Rescue units turned out for a seemingly easily avoidable drama, but these sorts of things are easy controlled training for the serrvices involved as has been said before. Just happy no one the other side of the mountain had to wait with a broken femur in the shade laying on cold rock for the helicopter to come and rescue them.

I have to ask though: Why do these team building exercises have to take place in the wilds? Why can't it be held in the local woods within reach of a car park? Or if they want to climb peaks then use the stairs in the local tower block a few times, if she gets into difficulty there's always the lift to use to rescue her. Or am I being a killjoy?

No I'm not trying to say the people should be kept away from these rugged picturesque and inaccessable places, but if you're unprepared for doing these things to start with, then stay in an environment you are familiar with i.e. A town.

Rant over. Grrrrrrrrrrrr

 

[Expat]

No I'm not trying to say the people should be kept away from these rugged picturesque and inaccessable places, but if you're unprepared for doing these things to start with, then stay in an environment you are familiar with i.e. A town.

Rant over. Grrrrrrrrrrrr

We seem to have lost sight of the O.P. very early on in the thread - - - IT WAS A TV PROGRAMME Which answers more than one of the points raised, but
also means the SAR team was probably waiting on the sidelines and more than likely a fee had already been agreed.....

 

[Wook]

We seem to have lost sight of the O.P. very early on in the thread - - - IT WAS A TV PROGRAMME Which answers more than one of the points raised, but
also means the SAR team was probably waiting on the sidelines and more than likely a fee had already been agreed.....

Well, no. It is meant to be a documentary. A jazzed up, sensationalised documentary certainly, but it supposedly just involves them letting a cameraman ride along,. I don't think the RAF would have the time or the inclination to stage fake rescues for the camera.

A big problem with the whole teambuilding concept is that it is a once a year works outing.

It is unwise to take people who have been sitting behind a desk all year and then immediately expect them to be able to march to the centre of the Cairngorms. You need to work up to hikes like that, something which the outdoor training package does not allow for.

The group leaders are the ones who really should know better though - they are meant to be the experts and should be willing to suggest a wiser course of action when a potetial customer asks them to march 50 middle-aged desk jockies into the middle of nowhere.