Out of their depth...

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saxonaxe

Nomad
Sep 29, 2018
482
1,133
79
SW Wales
I went off this morning to get my forth stabbing courtesy of the NHS. As a wrinkly I've had two vaccinations and now, two boosters. Later I went down to my boat where while pottering about on board, I heard an onlooker on the shore remark to her companion, " Doesn't the Tide come in slowly here." which set me thinking about Tony's recent post about passing on information, or knowledge if you prefer.

Now I'm not presuming to teach anyone to suck eggs, but the thought struck me that possibly forum members living inland or others with no real interest in the ways of the sea may benefit from a brief explanation about Tides that may help them avoid problems or even danger should they find themselves somewhere that Tides will effect them. I'm thinking of Bush Crafters who might be novice sea shore foragers, Beach Anglers or even just visitors to the Seaside.

Tides around our shores vary in their characteristics according to location, although the general rule is there are two high tides and two low tides every 24 hours...in most places..
The Solent on the South Coast and Poole have double high waters and Weymouth Bay for instance has a double low water.. but let's forget about the odd places and look at the general picture.

Going back to what the lady on the shore said, the incoming Tide ( The Flood) was indeed slow at the moment she commented, but the Tide was only in the first hour of flood and would accelerate, the water getting deeper faster as the Tide entered the 6 hour cycle to High Water.
To explain. In the first hour a Tide will make about 8% of it's total depth at High Water. In the second hour the speed of increase is about 17%, in the third hour 25%. So, 3 hours into the Tide (half Tide) the Tide reaches maximum speed of increase. The forth hour also runs at 25% and then the rate slackens, 17% and finally in the last hour before maximum High Water the Tide just makes the final 8% or so.
Once again, percentages are approximate and depend on area, but are a good general guide.

"Imagine someone filling a narrow neck bottle under a tap. Start slowly, making sure the water is going into the bottle, open the tap further as the bottle fills to half full, then slowly close the tap to a trickle as the water rises up the bottle neck to full."
And that's the way Tidal behaviour was explained to me at 16+ years of age when I joined my first ship..sorry about the quaint explanation..But at least I remember it nearly 62 years later.. :laugh: :laugh:

Being serious though, many people have been caught out on the flat sands or Marshes and even rocky beaches difficult to escape from, because they didn't understand the Tides.
Far out on the sands of Morecombe Bay I bet someone has thought, "The Tide has been coming in for an hour but it's ok, it's only up to my ankles, there's plenty of time to get back to land"
In the next hour the depth of water doesn't just double, it's probably up to their knees and they can't wade as fast as the incoming Tide is deepening....In places like Moprecombe Bay and the Wash on the East Coast a Spring Tide will flood faster than a man can run/wade.

The actual figures for calculating Tides are not carved in stone, for instance there are 12 hours 20 odd minutes between the two high and low Tides each day and in some areas the Tide will 'Hang' and not start to flood or ebb exactly as predicted. Then there is local Barometric pressure to consider which can increase or decrease the depth of the Tide..then there's local wind direction..But if you are aware of the basic aspects of Tides then after consulting local Tide Tables AND listening to any local folk before you venture off foraging or Rock Pooling with the kids, you will be safer.
:thumbsup:
 

bearbait

Full Member
Your percentages, saxonaxe, I learnt as the "Rule of Twelfths" in the dim and distant past. The figures go 1 - 2 - 3 - 3 - 2 - 1; easy enough to remember. So in the first hour after LW (or HW) the tide rises (or falls) 1/12 of the range, the second hour 2/12, the third 3/12, etc., etc, closely approximating your figures.

The range of the tide is also dependent on the Moon's position in relation to the Sun and Earth, and the consequent Spring tides (full moon and new moon) and Neap tides, each occurring twice a month, the range being larger on the Spring tides. At certain times of the lunar cycle when the Moon is closer to Earth than generally there are extra high and low tides.

And when you are sailing in a tidal stream it tends to be a little weaker closer to the coast due, I recall, to friction.

As you say saxonaxe, local winds, onshore and offshore can affect the tides too. As can heavy rainfall inland affect the tides too, in the larger estuaries. And, indeed, storms hundreds of miles away causing storm surges can have an impact.

All in all, a very interesting subject with loads of variables!
 

swyn

Life Member
Nov 24, 2004
1,159
227
Eastwards!
Learnt more about tides in that post that I ever knew
I'm not good with figures but one of the most fun courses was the RYA Day Skipper then Coastal Skipper then Yachtmaster. I managed all over a good number of years and even though I am still carp at figures I am ok at tides and working off the Small craft Almanac to find out what the water flow is going to do to my tiny Wayfarer. Plus as @bearbait says the weather.
I still bump along the bottom on low water Springs but that is the challenge exploring the East coast in a small boat. I've had some great encounters with people whilst very firmly aground:cool:
Using water flow to my advantage is the fun part along with defeating adverse flows by shallow water manoeuvers.
S
 

saxonaxe

Nomad
Sep 29, 2018
482
1,133
79
SW Wales
Yes, I used the Rule of Twelfths for every day coastal navigation for many years, but I tried to post in the simplest manner, avoiding Tidal Diamonds, Secondary Ports calculations, etc:
As you say, loads of variables, so I tried to stick to the Kiss principle for general information primarily for Landsmen. :thumbsup:
 
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The Frightful

Full Member
Apr 21, 2020
437
118
Essex
I got in trouble swimming in the sea in N Devon, tide was coming in 100%. Strong off shore wind i was swimming back in with the tide but was making no headway as the wind was pushing the 2ft of water i was swimming in back out to sea. I was swimming like s man possessed and was seconds away from alerting the lifeguards, in that moment i became both terrified and respectful of any sea or open body of water. You can have all the tidal facts and figures, weather reports and such but thousands of time served experienced professional Mariners have not returned due to mother natures whims, unless you need to for necessities leave well alone over waist deep !
 
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grizzlyj

Full Member
Nov 10, 2016
181
126
NW UK
Very nice explanations :)
Please delve deeper if anyone has the inclination.
I have the little yellow book from Tidetimes for nearest me which I think is really interesting, showing times of high and low but also what the moon is doing, and the actual relative heights of those tides throughout the year. Last year I bought half a dozen of them covering nearby coast to see how they varied, what the delay was and height differences between them.
I only recently learnt that tide heights are (I think) relative to generally where you are, not necessarily to each other? So not based on OS datum UK wide even if you could reduce them to it?

For a little book example, you can look online or even subscribe but I like the wee books themselves :)
 

TLM

Bushcrafter (boy, I've got a lot to say!)
Nov 16, 2019
3,128
1,649
Vantaa, Finland
On the subject of changing sea height: actual tide is negligible here on the Baltic but water level changes can still be fairly large, at the bottom of Gulf of Finland and Gulf of Bothnia the difference between max and min levels can be upto 3.5 m. Usually not very close to to each other. So wind and air pressure can by them selves cause quite large level changes.
 
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saxonaxe

Nomad
Sep 29, 2018
482
1,133
79
SW Wales
"the difference between max and min levels can be upto 3.5 m. "

As a youngster, one of my first ships was a small 600 ton Coasting vessel. We docked in St Helier Port in the Channel Islands, due to load Tomatoes for the mainland I seem to recall. I went off ashore and on returning to the ship was convinced she had sailed without me! Where's my ship gone!! I couldn't see her alongside the quay, I couldn't even see her mast..until I got to the dockside.
There she was..down there, and I found myself looking down onto her decks. I soon learned that tidal range in the Channel Islands is something like 11 metres or possibly more at certain times. One of the highest tidal ranges in the world I believe.
:laugh:
 

Winnet

Forager
Oct 5, 2011
231
69
Aberdeen
Very nice explanations :)
Please delve deeper if anyone has the inclination.
I have the little yellow book from Tidetimes for nearest me which I think is really interesting, showing times of high and low but also what the moon is doing, and the actual relative heights of those tides throughout the year. Last year I bought half a dozen of them covering nearby coast to see how they varied, what the delay was and height differences between them.
I only recently learnt that tide heights are (I think) relative to generally where you are, not necessarily to each other? So not based on OS datum UK wide even if you could reduce them to it?

For a little book example, you can look online or even subscribe but I like the wee books themselves :)
The wonderful world of chart datum and the relationship to OD Newlyn. Then you have primary and secondary ports to add to the confusion.

G

Sent from my SM-G973F using Tapatalk
 

TLM

Bushcrafter (boy, I've got a lot to say!)
Nov 16, 2019
3,128
1,649
Vantaa, Finland
Having grown on lakes and brackish inland sea with no tides, the phenomenon is really fascinating. The first time I saw it in Denmark or Sweden's west coast I had to check what is going on after every few hours, still find it worth watching.
 

saxonaxe

Nomad
Sep 29, 2018
482
1,133
79
SW Wales
Like many other aspects of seafaring the consideration of Tides no longer plays such an important part in voyages as was once the case, certainly not in commercial shipping anyway.
Once the Coastal and River anchorages would be full of sailing vessels "Waiting for the Tide". Without engines and little wind they could go nowhere until the Tide turned in their favour. Now of course a Diesel engine, even in a modern yacht means it can travel against a foul tide.

Living aboard my boat and making many coastal voyages, and even though I had an engine I still followed the old doctrine 95% of the time. I found that on a windless day with the engine plugging along at 5 knots against a 4 Knot tide was a pointless and fuel wasting exercise, so I would run into an anchorage and get the kettle on or have a few hours sleep. Like the vessels of old I would coastal hop from anchorage to anchorage using the tides.

There are places where using a fair tide is a great advantage. Portland Bill on the Dorset Coast for instance, plan your voyage to catch the tide right there and progress can be twice the normal boat speed, get it wrong and you end up going stern first back to where you started..
:roflmao:..:roflmao:
 

Scottieoutdoors

Settler
Oct 22, 2020
852
608
Devon
@saxonaxe
Yup, the channel islands tides are massive. Its also very interesting on the east coast of Jersey, when the tide is in the expanse of flat water looks like the perfect spot to sit at anchor, when the tide goes out, you suddenly see the huge rocky landscape that prove it'd be an abysmal anchorage...hooray for charts!!
 

SaraR

Full Member
Mar 25, 2017
1,638
1,187
Ceredigion
"the difference between max and min levels can be upto 3.5 m. "

As a youngster, one of my first ships was a small 600 ton Coasting vessel. We docked in St Helier Port in the Channel Islands, due to load Tomatoes for the mainland I seem to recall. I went off ashore and on returning to the ship was convinced she had sailed without me! Where's my ship gone!! I couldn't see her alongside the quay, I couldn't even see her mast..until I got to the dockside.
There she was..down there, and I found myself looking down onto her decks. I soon learned that tidal range in the Channel Islands is something like 11 metres or possibly more at certain times. One of the highest tidal ranges in the world I believe.
:laugh:
I had that happen to me on Jersey when I was sailing on a (small) tall ship. Got back from a couple of hours on land and had a very long climb down to the deck. :D
 

punkrockcaveman

Full Member
Jan 28, 2017
1,457
1,514
yorks
Great point @saxonaxe the book of tides by Angela Readman is a fantastic and simple guide to understanding the sea and tides too. It's ironically taught me more about sea fishing than any fishing book!
 
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Scottieoutdoors

Settler
Oct 22, 2020
852
608
Devon
Whilst it's nice to have some activities in the UK that don't require a tax, licence, ticket etc of some sort, it always amazes me that people can buy a boat, tow it to the sea and throw it and themselves in and blast off without any formal training or qualifications...

We'd always find there were those that would have their boat parked on their driveway for 10 months, chuck it in the sea, shoot off and wonder why things failed out at sea.. no maintenance, no filter changes, nothing...
 

swyn

Life Member
Nov 24, 2004
1,159
227
Eastwards!
Whilst it's nice to have some activities in the UK that don't require a tax, licence, ticket etc of some sort, it always amazes me that people can buy a boat, tow it to the sea and throw it and themselves in and blast off without any formal training or qualifications...

We'd always find there were those that would have their boat parked on their driveway for 10 months, chuck it in the sea, shoot off and wonder why things failed out at sea.. no maintenance, no filter changes, nothing...
Part of this scares me to death. The no qualifications part. Yes freedom to blast off is great but there’s responsibility as well. There ARE rules of the road and there are some pretty nasty powered craft accidents each year simply because folk can just do the above and 30 knots may not sound that fast from a road users point of view but if two vessels are both doing 30 knots and neither driver(sorry) has the first clue of which way to turn to reduce the impending collision there will be some brown pant moments!
S
 

Scottieoutdoors

Settler
Oct 22, 2020
852
608
Devon
Part of this scares me to death. The no qualifications part. Yes freedom to blast off is great but there’s responsibility as well. There ARE rules of the road and there are some pretty nasty powered craft accidents each year simply because folk can just do the above and 30 knots may not sound that fast from a road users point of view but if two vessels are both doing 30 knots and neither driver(sorry) has the first clue of which way to turn to reduce the impending collision there will be some brown pant moments!
S

Yup exactly this, same as everything in life that you can do without formal training, those with zero respect and less than a braincell between the lot of them get involved and ruin it for everyone else inc the respectful ones that would like to try it, or the old boys who have done it safely for decades without formal quals....
 

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