Met a knife idiot

[Allans865]

The laws against carrying knives without good reason are not there because of idiots, but because of people with messed up moral compasses, rubbish impulse control, violent tendencies and a general willingness to maim or murder rather than take perceived slights or risk losing face with their equally messed up peers. They undoubtedly catch a lot of idiots.

I for one loath the present idea that because it is not possible to prevent our social dregs from committing crimes, society is happy to ban or criminalise whole swathes of objects so that merely carrying or possessing them becomes the crime, whether there was any intent to cause harm or not. I know it is law, and I follow the law to the best of my ability, but that doesn't mean I think it is right or that I am happy with it, or that I would want to help it be enforced at every opportunity.

This young chap sounds to us about how we all sound to the rest of the public. I agree that his taste sounds pretty dreadful, and that he is a bit of an idiot, but he has a job, likes knives and wants to be able to use the tools he likes. In my book that is no different from someone liking their Gransfors and carrying it on camping trips or carrying a locking folder on a building site. I have done plenty of camping in the UK and not needed an axe and I know that people manage on job sites with knives by Stanley.

Showing an interest, acting friendly so that someone is put at ease, then reporting them to the police is, I think, pretty scummy behaviour. Who here would want that to happen to themselves? Out for a walk somewhere that they think they can justify carrying a Mora and Wildlife hatchet, meet a someone walking a dog or hiking who expresses interest in bushcraft, have a nice chat, then later find this person reported them to the police as a possible danger to society!?!

I think the lad needs to be told that he is on thin ice, that he is not creating a good impression and that he is increasing the risks faced by everyone else with whom he shares his interest....and that even for big knives, his choices are rubbish. Maybe the message will go in, maybe it won't. It stands a better chance from making an impact from someone who knows what they are on about and has knowledge rather than someone who is merely nervous and fearful.

Very well said Sir, I applaud you 👏

 

[KenThis]

Aye Up,

If you take a mental step back from this thread it is easy to see that the entire issue is/was to do with perception and interpretation.

Perception of a threat and interpretation of the law.

I state is/was because the ‘facts’ as declared by the OP may have changed slightly during the ping-pong match – at one point the lad was carrying the knife (perceivably on him?) later it appears that he has fetched it from a vehicle – material aspects relevant to each side of this debate as to whether any law has been broken .

That aside, the OP must have perceived a potential threat – at the time to himself or for someone, somewhere in the future or he wouldn’t have made the OP.

Some of us are perceiving a potential threat irrespective of any law issue, others not seeing or ignoring any perceived threat and trying to apply the law in black and white and looking for reasonable excuse to justify possession of an offensive weapon for an arguably dubious ‘work’ related purpose.

Here is another real life example –

“I was carrying the knife in my jeans pocket (a 4 inch lock blade folder) because I was just on my way to cut some lino at a friend’s house”.

Whilst we have the benefit on this site of debating the content of the OP over hours/days etc, consider the time scale for a police officer in any given similar situation – moments.

Put yourself in the officer’s position:
Your primary function is the protection of life - yes, even pre-emptive!
(Your secondary function is the protection of your own livelihood.)

Confronted with such a situation, there is no way that a police officer is just going to let it go (I hope!), there are going to be consequences!

Some here have put it quite well in their responses, it isn’t just about ‘the law’ it is about perception -

Seen in isolation this thread could be misleading to the lesser informed.

Open debate - fair play but surely the collective message that should be coming from this forum for the benefit all but specifically the inexperienced is something along the lines of -

Have your knife; Make it an appropriate knife; Know the basic law; Don’t carry if you don’t need it; If you carry in public (to/from bush crafting) don’t make it easily accessible; Only use it where you have permission to do so; Don’t forget to remove it from your kit post outing.

Above all – ignorance is no defence.

.

You're right. With more information from the OP my instinct for involving police has diminished.
In my head was an obvious fantasist, with a fondness for illegal weapons wanting to circumvent the knife carrying laws.

HOWEVER.
Although I freely admit I am prone to worry / anxiety, if I ever met someone who struck me as potentially dangerous and doing something suspicious / illegal. I'm reporting it to the police, and I would hope that the majority of police officers would take note, otherwise what is the point.

Whether right or wrong I believe that people are naturally good at spotting things that are off, especially when it comes to other people. They might not be be able to put a finger on it but some behaviours are noticed instinctively and probably not even at a conscious level as being 'other'. Therefore if a member of the public voices concerns they should at least be noted, if not looked into.

 

[Snake]

To be fair, in my experience the best tool for removing trees and brush to dig ponds has been an adequately sized bulldozer. A D9 usually does a good job.

I'm board of reading about a rambo knife, so how do you "dig" a hole with a bulldozer, I find if I want to dig a hole I like the sides to be near vertical, or at least over 45 degs.

 

[Klenchblaize]

You're right. With more information from the OP my instinct for involving police has diminished.
In my head was an obvious fantasist, with a fondness for illegal weapons wanting to circumvent the knife carrying laws.

HOWEVER.
Although I freely admit I am prone to worry / anxiety, if I ever met someone who struck me as potentially dangerous and doing something suspicious / illegal. I'm reporting it to the police, and I would hope that the majority of police officers would take note, otherwise what is the point.

Whether right or wrong I believe that people are naturally good at spotting things that are off, especially when it comes to other people. They might not be be able to put a finger on it but some behaviours are noticed instinctively and probably not even at a conscious level as being 'other'. Therefore if a member of the public voices concerns they should at least be noted, if not looked into.

But what constitues "off"?

At my reading there are hundreds of thousands if not millions in this Country (alone) who find the concept of seeking solace in the woods with an axe and ventile pants each Weekend to be very questionable.

That said I'm not about to suggest a certain judgement based on profiling is a bad thing as where the hell would we be if rejecting such in our battle with terrorism?

K

 

[Fadcode]

I'm board of reading about a rambo knife, so how do you "dig" a hole with a bulldozer, I find if I want to dig a hole I like the sides to be near vertical, or at least over 45 degs.

I agree I like the sides of my holes to be near vertical, unless I am laying in the hole, then I like them horizontal, you can also take your time too, dig half the hole one day then the other half the next day, unless you take 3 days, then you end up with 3 half holes, which can be a bit of a bother.

 

[Leshy]

You lot are just nuts....😂

Rambo knives, the law and how do you like your holes 😨😂

 

[Toddy]

I generally dug mine out with a mattock once I'd de-turfed, and then used a wee trowel

Out 'crafting' though I use a digging stick

Never yet needed a rambo knife though.

 

[santaman2000]

I'm board of reading about a rambo knife, so how do you "dig" a hole with a bulldozer, I find if I want to dig a hole I like the sides to be near vertical, or at least over 45 degs.

My post wasn't about digging the pond, it was about removing the trees and brush before digging the hole. It's easy; you just push them down and into a pile (called a windrow) which will be burned later)

That said, pretty much all ponds and lakes are dug with bulldozers now-a-days. I'll grant that the smaller of my two ponds (which is less than a full acre) was dug before bulldozers were common (a little over a century ago) with a mule drawn slip. The sides are pretty much never vertical; you just deepen the natural slope of the hollow and push the excavated dirt/clay to the downhill end to build up the dam. I watched Daddy dig the newer of the two ponds on my land when I was about 6 or 7 years old and watched him dig dozens more before he died (he was a dozer operator all my life)

Sorta like this small pond (with a bulldozer)https://youtu.be/e8nNETwW1tk Now they wait for a rainstorm to fill it.

Or like this one (with a slip) except that my great, great uncle used a team of mules rather than the oxen in the video https://youtu.be/baH0WUJd_m8

 

[spandit]

On the pond digging Spandit, give PHB a call http://www.lakes-ponds.co.uk/

Thanks, buddy, have sent them an email

 

[boatman]

We all have our enthusiasms and they change over the years. Bit sad if someone he thought was interested in similar things reported him for a non-crime. Obviously pointing out current law and prejudices would not do any harm. I wonder what some would think of my recent acquisitions of a Migration Germanic warriors kit. Feltwell sword to go with the seax, angon and francisca along with a shield with a proper button tipped boss. I have tried to get both a sharp and a blunt version of the kit. This is partly because sharp things keep you honest in their handling and that for display, without public handling, they give a more real impression. On the other hand one could be presented as a weapon obsessed nutter and a SWAT team should immediately surround the house.

 

[KenThis]

I don't want to belabour the point but I'll paint a slightly different scenario to the OP.

I arrive at someone's property to do some work. I notice they are wearing a rather tacticool neck knife (not my cup of tea). As someone interested in knives we talk and they tell me about their collection of knives, air guns etc. As I'm leaving they ask if I'd be interested to see their knife collection. I say yes so the owner invites me inside and proceeds to pull out a very large 'Rambo' style survival knife (not my cup of tea either) we talk some more and they tell me how great this survival knife is and how it could be used in all sorts of exaggerated ways. I have in my toolbox some bushcraft knives. A mora, a wood lore clone, a nessmuk (maybe choose 3 knives you like) They are all sheathed and in a separate compartment to my other tools. I explain to the owner the different merits of the different knives and how each is suited to particular uses. I also talk about the search for the perfect one knife to do everything at camp and the pros and cons etc. I get my phone out and show videos of feather sticks and batoning and skinning a rabbit etc. The owner is polite and seems interested asking questions etc. We leave on good terms.

In this scenario am I reporting the owner to the police? No obviously not, the person is interested in things that aren't for me but that's a question of taste. He was on his own property and at no point did anything that warrants suspicion from me. He may have exaggerated or lied about his prize survival knife but again that's not unexpected in the circumstances.

However what if the owner reported me to the police?
Would I be happy? No.
Would he have been within his right to report me? I'd say obviously. I went on his property with knives that I had no business taking and which under current laws are illegal (when I say that I don't mean the knives are illegal I mean the carrying of them in public is.).
If/when I get a visit from a police officer it is then down to me to explain my good reason for carrying the knives.

We could go further and I could give any number of reasonable excuses as to why those knives are in my toolbox. I use them to process firewood/ food lunchtimes etc. Maybe after work I'm going camping and I dint want to leave them in my back pack in my van. Or maybe I try to say they are work knives and give examples of when I use each in my work.
Depending on the police officer and what they think, anything could happen, from I've done nothing wrong or a warning or end up arrested. In this instance we will say the officer believes I have done nothing wrong.

Now although I might not like the attitude of the owner for reporting me. Can I really argue that they have not done things correctly. I really don't think so.
We could maybe say they should have voiced their concerns to me directly. But they might not have felt comfortable to do so.
We could also say that since the officer believes me they were wrong to report me. But I'd still argue that the owner was still correct, it's not their job to decide on the law.

 

[santaman2000]

I don't want to belabour the point but I'll paint a slightly different scenario to the OP.

I arrive at someone's property to do some work. I notice they are wearing a rather tacticool neck knife (not my cup of tea). As someone interested in knives we talk and they tell me about their collection of knives, air guns etc. As I'm leaving they ask if I'd be interested to see their knife collection. I say yes so the owner invites me inside and proceeds to pull out a very large 'Rambo' style survival knife (not my cup of tea either) we talk some more and they tell me how great this survival knife is and how it could be used in all sorts of exaggerated ways. I have in my toolbox some bushcraft knives. A mora, a wood lore clone, a nessmuk (maybe choose 3 knives you like) They are all sheathed and in a separate compartment to my other tools. I explain to the owner the different merits of the different knives and how each is suited to particular uses. I also talk about the search for the perfect one knife to do everything at camp and the pros and cons etc. I get my phone out and show videos of feather sticks and batoning and skinning a rabbit etc. The owner is polite and seems interested asking questions etc. We leave on good terms.

In this scenario am I reporting the owner to the police? No obviously not, the person is interested in things that aren't for me but that's a question of taste. He was on his own property and at no point did anything that warrants suspicion from me. He may have exaggerated or lied about his prize survival knife but again that's not unexpected in the circumstances.

However what if the owner reported me to the police?
Would I be happy? No.
Would he have been within his right to report me? I'd say obviously. I went on his property with knives that I had no business taking and which under current laws are illegal (when I say that I don't mean the knives are illegal I mean the carrying of them in public is.).
If/when I get a visit from a police officer it is then down to me to explain my good reason for carrying the knives.

We could go further and I could give any number of reasonable excuses as to why those knives are in my toolbox. I use them to process firewood/ food lunchtimes etc. Maybe after work I'm going camping and I dint want to leave them in my back pack in my van. Or maybe I try to say they are work knives and give examples of when I use each in my work.
Depending on the police officer and what they think, anything could happen, from I've done nothing wrong or a warning or end up arrested. In this instance we will say the officer believes I have done nothing wrong.

Now although I might not like the attitude of the owner for reporting me. Can I really argue that they have not done things correctly. I really don't think so.
We could maybe say they should have voiced their concerns to me directly. But they might not have felt comfortable to do so.
We could also say that since the officer believes me they were wrong to report me. But I'd still argue that the owner was still correct, it's not their job to decide on the law.

Mostly true, but in your scenario we could retitle this thread; I Met An Idiot Landowner Today.

 

[Janne]

Personally I would not report anybody with an illegal ( illegalbecause the Law says so) knife.
Why?
Because I do not agree with the law and have broken against it on more occasions that I care to remember.

If we honest law abiding citizens do not like a stupid law, what should we do?
Write letters to the Parliament, Daily Mail and so on?


It would be intersting to see some statistics of which implements are used in harming the citizens.
In the online newspapers it seems lots of harm is done with bottles and glasses in pubs and clubs.

I own two sabres. Belonged to by Granddad, one is a "working" sabre he used in WW1 against the Italians ( and Brits), is sharp as a razor. The other one is his too, but was part of a dress uniform so was never used in combat.

They hang on a wall, fully visible. Would I have been happy if a tradesman have called the police?
I do not think so.

 

[santaman2000]

Personally I would not report anybody with an illegal ( illegalbecause the Law says so) knife.
Why?
Because I do not agree with the law and have broken against it on more occasions that I care to remember.....

This keeps popping in my head too. Does anybody on this forum not carry a fixed blade on occasion? Never mind that it's a short bladed Mora. Are we really going to report somebody just because their choice of which illegal knife to carry is different?

 

[Janne]

This keeps popping in my head too. Does anybody on this forum not carry a fixed blade on occasion? Never mind that it's a short bladed Mora. Are we really going to report somebody just because their choice of which illegal knife to carry is different?

Imaging if somebody called the police in the middle of the next Bushmoot......

A bunch of guys, ( and the odd gal) equipped with multiple knives, axes, implements to start fires...
The majority of the knives are probably illegal.

 

[boatman]

Why would you report him to the police? Would you like this to happen to you?

 

[homesicksteve]

Time and again the 'law' either restricts, or is used against law abiding citizens....( a lock on a folder is a safety feature after all. )

While teenage criminals continue to stab each other with their Mother's kitchen knives.....

Anyone who uses knives as tools should understand this, and would be better served promoting safe, responsible tool use,
rather than calling the plod, or encouraging more legislation.

 

[Janne]

I wonder what some would think of my recent acquisitions of a Migration Germanic warriors kit. .

Wonder if there will be a Migration Syrian kit in the distant future?
Complete with a mockup of an iPhone, an inflatable dinghy and wellworn Adidas NMDs?

Just a crude joke, but seriously, what will they dress up as in the distant future if they want to do our time?

 

[Janne]

If enough people disobey a unneccessary law, will it be removed?
They did remove the regulation about the guy running in front of a motor vehicle, waving a flag, after all.

It was not a bad law, imagine how many lives would be saved every year !!!

[/I]

Time and again the 'law' either restricts, or is used against law abiding citizens....( a lock on a folder is a safety feature after all. )

While teenage criminals continue to stab each other with their Mother's kitchen knives.....

Anyone who uses knives as tools should understand this, and would be better served promoting safe, responsible tool use,
rather than calling the plod, or encouraging more legislation.

 

[KenThis]

I really struggle sometimes explaining my ideas, in text especially, and during this thread in particular.

As well as my completely legal EDC penknives, I myself sometimes carry fixed blade knives, lock blade knives, axes, even my skrama in public. I am aware that this is prohibited by law without a good reason.

However I only carry these things with what I feel is a good reason.
I do not show them in public, they are not carried on my person directly.
I tend to use them on private land with permission, so more often than not I am travelling to or from somewhere, when in public.

However I have used fixed blades to process firewood and food, cut walking sticks and practice 'bushcraft' whilst on public land.
I can only remember meeting someone else whilst doing my bushcraft thing twice. Both times I put my blades away when I became aware of their presence. I'm not very social but luckily I was with someone else who was.

I do struggle socially (some have even suggested I'm on the autistic scale) so I am very aware that I do not always come across as 'normal'. I am also a very big guy for my part of the world (6'4" and 25 stone I've been told is intimidating), which also impacts on what (and how) I do in public. I am not interested in wild life watching per se, so I wear brighter colours than most. I do not like military gear and cammo in part because I do not want to come across as a 'Rambo' wannabe (I've read the term WALT, something to do with Mickey Mouse soldier perhaps).
I feel what we do as bushcraft is often a very natural, peaceful, primordial, instinctive thing. Make fire, sleep outdoors, cook and eat, share skills, enjoy time in the woods away from people and concrete. A knife, axe etc. is a tool to accomplish those things.

Do I feel like I break the law? No.
Could I be seen to be breaking the law as it stands? Quite possibly.
Am I worried about being stopped and questioned by the police whilst carrying any blades in public? Not overly, because as I see it, if and when I carry them I have a good reason and besides I go out of my way to try to limit the the possibility occurring.

As I see it, the law was made in order for the police to stop people from carrying an offensive weapon in public.
A large rambo style survival knife is far closer to an offensive weapon than it is to a tool IMHO.
I don't understand the vast majority of people, let alone trust them to be carrying something like that.
Therefore I do not want people in public with easily accessible offensive weapons.

I was interested in a similar thread recently where someone had asked for clarification from the police. It was pointed out that it is easier for the police to say no to all blades in public, rather than it is to allow some in specific situations. Especially as this could in turn allow some to try to legally circumvent for their own nefarious purposes.

The OP has clarified somewhat to the original situation. But if I met someone in public with what could be seen to be an offensive weapon (without a good reason) I'm reporting that person.