Manchester dogs home set on fire .

British Red

M.A.B (Mad About Bushcraft)
Dec 30, 2005
26,888
2,140
Mercia
this is interesting reading - the vengeful won't like it. But revenge does nothing for society as a whole
http://www.theguardian.com/society/2013/feb/25/norwegian-prison-inmates-treated-like-people

They claim

On Bastoy prison island in Norway, the prisoners, some of whom are murderers and rapists, live in conditions that critics brand 'cushy' and 'luxurious'. Yet it has by far the lowest reoffending rate in Europe

I bet hanging has an even lower reoffending rate. If you cut out the endless appeals I bet its cheaper too.
 

British Red

M.A.B (Mad About Bushcraft)
Dec 30, 2005
26,888
2,140
Mercia
answer my question first. Are you happy for the odd innocent to do the long drop? After all it protects the majority right?

The death sentence isn't a deterrent btw.

Its not a simple matter. We deny people life saving treatments on the basis of cost and yet pay fortunes to keep vile criminals in prison. So innocent people do die as a result of imprisonment.

Am I happy for any innocent to die? No. But they are already suffering as we are too cowardly to stand back and examine all the alternatives.

Can I live with it if it costs the occasional life but saves hundreds?

Yes.
 

mountainm

Bushcrafter through and through
Jan 12, 2011
9,990
12
Selby
www.mikemountain.co.uk
Its not a simple matter. We deny people life saving treatments on the basis of cost and yet pay fortunes to keep vile criminals in prison. So innocent people do die as a result of imprisonment.

Am I happy for any innocent to die? No. But they are already suffering as we are too cowardly to stand back and examine all the alternatives.

Can I live with it if it costs the occasional life but saves hundreds?

Yes.
save hundreds? Where did you get that stat from?

It's not a deterrent.
 

santaman2000

M.A.B (Mad About Bushcraft)
Jan 15, 2011
16,909
1,120
68
Florida
....Your prisons are full to bursting.

Yes, I know. I worked in one for over 10 years and a jail for another year. I also have one cousin now on parole after spending a couple of decades in one for murder. I can honestly say, out of the hundreds of people I personally knew there, I only met one who didn't belong there. And he would have been paroled earlier if he could have curbed his honesty in front of the Parole Board.
 

British Red

M.A.B (Mad About Bushcraft)
Dec 30, 2005
26,888
2,140
Mercia
save hundreds? Where did you get that stat from?

.

Because the money saved on incarcerating them could be better used on medical treatments, housing the homeless, heating pensioners homes and all the other reasons honest hardworking people die from lack of money.

I'm not talking about deterrence, I'm talking about using the money that would have been spent keeping them in prison to save lives we cannot afford to save now.
 

mountainm

Bushcrafter through and through
Jan 12, 2011
9,990
12
Selby
www.mikemountain.co.uk
Because the money saved on incarcerating them could be better used on medical treatments, housing the homeless, heating pensioners homes and all the other reasons honest hardworking people die from lack of money.

I'm not talking about deterrence, I'm talking about using the money that would have been spent keeping them in prison to save lives we cannot afford to save now.
Ah ok. By that rational maybe we should deny healthcare to all prisoners? Also people who have self inflicted problems. The obese and smokers? Those with dementia maybe too), I mean what's the point? We could also save a fortune if we screened feotuses for severe disabilities and aborted those too?

Dangerous path to tread red. Personally I believe if murder is a crime then it can't be metered out as justice.
 

British Red

M.A.B (Mad About Bushcraft)
Dec 30, 2005
26,888
2,140
Mercia
Personally I believe if murder is a crime then it can't be metered out as justice.

Personally I think releasing dangerous prisoners out to murder and maim again is moral cowardice of the highest order.

We all have our beliefs - and neither of them has any particular monopoly on the moral high ground. Best to leave it there I suspect.
 

mountainm

Bushcrafter through and through
Jan 12, 2011
9,990
12
Selby
www.mikemountain.co.uk
Personally I think releasing dangerous prisoners out to murder and maim again is moral cowardice of the highest order.

We all have our beliefs - and neither of them has any particular monopoly on the moral high ground. Best to leave it there I suspect.
So maybe we can find a way to rehabilitate them so they don't offend again? Our justice system is broken. Not as broken as some though and we can still learn from others.
 

santaman2000

M.A.B (Mad About Bushcraft)
Jan 15, 2011
16,909
1,120
68
Florida
Ah ok. By that rational maybe we should deny healthcare to all prisoners? Also people who have self inflicted problems. The obese and smokers? Those with dementia maybe too), I mean what's the point? We could also save a fortune if we screened feotuses for severe disabilities and aborted those too?

Dangerous path to tread red. Personally I believe if murder is a crime then it can't be metered out as justice.


Deny medical care to smokers? No; but certainly charge them more for it (whether in higher insurance premiums as here or perhaps through a higher "smokers tax" there where you pay for it through the tax base0

Deny inmates medical care? Again, no. But we can certainly bill them to defray the cost (and other costs of incarceration) And yes, most county jails now do this. if the inmate has no money, he/she will still be treated and fed. But the minute any money is deposited into his inmate account, all debts to the county will be deducted before he/she is allowed to make a canteen purchase.

Abort unhealthy fetuses? I thought you were against murder?
 

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