Making a Lavvu
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How about closer to home ,has anybody tried making a hoop tent used by the nomadic travellers of Scotland,just as good as any tipi or lawu.
Also known as a bender. Commonly used until the sixties by Scottish travellers. I've made one or two, but they don't stand up to the wind like a lavvu.
Eric
Eric
Do you mean one of these.
>> http://www.enslin.com/rae/gypsy/bender.htm
I have a friend who lived in one for a while.
MickT
>> http://www.enslin.com/rae/gypsy/bender.htm
I have a friend who lived in one for a while.
MickT
I've made a bender in the spring and covered it in tarps it's still there dispite the strong wind we have had.
Here's a pic of the re-created Ojibwa village they have set up in Northern Minnesota at Grand Portage national monument. Note the similarities between two of the Woodland Indian "conical" lodges and the Lavvu. These are covered in birch bark panels, and some sewn together reed mats.
The far one is mostly a conical. The middle lodge is a "long house" - with poles bent into a half-circle. You make it as long as you want by just adding more "frames". The front lodge is a conical that has been "extended". It's starting to be more of an A-frame lodge. The birch bark sheets/panels and reed mats are held onto the outside of the frame of each lodge by laying extra poles on the outside - and doing a little more lashing. That doorway is around 5 feet tall. (It's that tall to allow the tourists/visitors to fairly easily walk through on their tour. Normally you would have to stoop pretty low to get in, or even crawl.)
Mikey - yee ol' grumpy blacksmith out in the Hinterlands
p.s. If you have a fire inside, you really need dry wood! Just like a tipi, you need to have flames or coals - otherwise you end up with lots of smoke that comes down pretty low. It also helps if the lavvu is taller. This allows you to have a "taller" fire, and helps it work a little better as a chimney. And keep that fire on top of the ground - not in a pit. You get better air flow, plus the heat radiates right out at ground level. Even that fire safety ring of rocks tends to block that radiated heat.
The far one is mostly a conical. The middle lodge is a "long house" - with poles bent into a half-circle. You make it as long as you want by just adding more "frames". The front lodge is a conical that has been "extended". It's starting to be more of an A-frame lodge. The birch bark sheets/panels and reed mats are held onto the outside of the frame of each lodge by laying extra poles on the outside - and doing a little more lashing. That doorway is around 5 feet tall. (It's that tall to allow the tourists/visitors to fairly easily walk through on their tour. Normally you would have to stoop pretty low to get in, or even crawl.)
Mikey - yee ol' grumpy blacksmith out in the Hinterlands
p.s. If you have a fire inside, you really need dry wood! Just like a tipi, you need to have flames or coals - otherwise you end up with lots of smoke that comes down pretty low. It also helps if the lavvu is taller. This allows you to have a "taller" fire, and helps it work a little better as a chimney. And keep that fire on top of the ground - not in a pit. You get better air flow, plus the heat radiates right out at ground level. Even that fire safety ring of rocks tends to block that radiated heat.
A good cheap source of canvas to use is as near as the nearest trucking company. Most of the big trucks that haul grain have a canvas cover for the trailer. That canvas cover needs to be replaced every so often - due to age, tears, rot, etc. Well, most of it just gets tossed into the dumpster.
So, if you know a trucker, or a trucking company that hauls grain, go ask them about ... salvaging ... those old canvas trailer covers. They are HEAVY, waterproof, and often are green in color. One cover from a large trailer should be enough canvas to cover a LARGE lavu. Just cut it into the lengths you need - or can "carry" easily.
You could always use those woven plastic/nylon tarps from the lumber yard or building supply store, but real canvas just looks and feels better. And it doesn't "rattle" in the wind!
Hope this helps.
Mikey - yee ol' grumpy blacksmith out in the Hinterlands
So, if you know a trucker, or a trucking company that hauls grain, go ask them about ... salvaging ... those old canvas trailer covers. They are HEAVY, waterproof, and often are green in color. One cover from a large trailer should be enough canvas to cover a LARGE lavu. Just cut it into the lengths you need - or can "carry" easily.
You could always use those woven plastic/nylon tarps from the lumber yard or building supply store, but real canvas just looks and feels better. And it doesn't "rattle" in the wind!
Hope this helps.
Mikey - yee ol' grumpy blacksmith out in the Hinterlands
Nylon tarps sound good to make up a dummy from, then when I get it perfect, unpick it and use the tarp as a template. I was watching Hugh Fearnly-Whitingstall this evening on the box and saw him use a canvas Lavvu with a single central pole and a top hat rain cover. That might just be worth while doing if I use a two or three piece wooden pole with metal tube joiners. It's going to be pegged out anyway, and I don't expect gale force winds so a single pole might work.
Eric
Eric
Then again, the tent shown on Bruce Parrys' Blizzard was a similar style of tent but obviously sealed from the outside completely. The frame was I believe six poles hinged at the top sort of like a theodolite stand but with more legs. They pull it out to shape and then plunge the legs into the snow and only need to peg the actual sheet down to stop the edges riding up. The legs keep the rest of the tent locked in place.
Six poles should be doable if you lock them in to place and maybe have them driven slightly into the ground, but the more poles you have the rounder it will look.
Six poles should be doable if you lock them in to place and maybe have them driven slightly into the ground, but the more poles you have the rounder it will look.
A lot of the construction/design depends upon how ... portable ... you wish to make your lavvu. Traditionally, the lavvu (or Indian Conical lodge) were set up with poles cut right in the area, and those poles were left. The covering material would often be taken along, but the poles were left, and then re-used the next time they were in the area. But if you want your lavvu to be portable, then you probably have to limit the number of poles you carry along.
And also if you wish to use a fire inside your lavvu. The use of an internal fire requires that the top be open enough somewhere for the smoke to escape. Plus, you also then need a controlled way for fresh air to come into the lavvu - to keep the fire burning well, and to help the smoke rise out through the top. So if you close up the top, you can't use a fire. Using some sort of umbrella or "rain cap" will help keep water from running/dripping down the poles, but can be a bit ... tricky ... to get and keep in place.
The US Army back in the mid 1800's came up with the Sibley Tent - their "interpretation" of the Indian Tipi. It was a Cone shaped tent with a very short skirting around the edge that functioned like a sidewall. The tent was staked to the ground using ropes extending out in the same slope/angle as the roof part. That side wall skirt then hung down to the ground. It was held up with one central pole. They also developed a wood stove to fit into the center with the stove pipe running up through the peak - and also acting as the support pole. It's an interesting tent.
Just a few more things to keep in mind.
Mikey - yee ol' grumpy blacksmith out in the Hinterlands
And also if you wish to use a fire inside your lavvu. The use of an internal fire requires that the top be open enough somewhere for the smoke to escape. Plus, you also then need a controlled way for fresh air to come into the lavvu - to keep the fire burning well, and to help the smoke rise out through the top. So if you close up the top, you can't use a fire. Using some sort of umbrella or "rain cap" will help keep water from running/dripping down the poles, but can be a bit ... tricky ... to get and keep in place.
The US Army back in the mid 1800's came up with the Sibley Tent - their "interpretation" of the Indian Tipi. It was a Cone shaped tent with a very short skirting around the edge that functioned like a sidewall. The tent was staked to the ground using ropes extending out in the same slope/angle as the roof part. That side wall skirt then hung down to the ground. It was held up with one central pole. They also developed a wood stove to fit into the center with the stove pipe running up through the peak - and also acting as the support pole. It's an interesting tent.
Just a few more things to keep in mind.
Mikey - yee ol' grumpy blacksmith out in the Hinterlands
Hello. I hope that I might not be breaking rules but I had more questions about the Lavvu if that's ok?
(I looked at the rules but couldnt find anything about reincarnating old threads)
Basically my concern is about ventilation if I wanted fires inside. I know I need a tall roof with a hole in the top, however how do I ensure ventilation at the base of a traditional Lavvu? Do I leave a gap in the tent wall or under the door or will I have to deal with drafts? Old pictures of the tents show that the material of the sides goes right flush to the ground or very close.
Also I am having a hard time figuring out a good size for a 'one to three person' Lavvuu. I'm thinking ten foot base, ten feet tall or so? Also if I wanted to go wild and use actual reindeer hides, what should I keep in mind for assembling the entire thing? A friend said due to our rain and such in the area (Alberta prairie) that the hides would go bad. However, the Native Americans in the area used buffallo hide teepee. I just have to make sure the hides dry out before packing them up, and waterproof them.
Any other tips are welcome, thank you!
(I looked at the rules but couldnt find anything about reincarnating old threads)
Basically my concern is about ventilation if I wanted fires inside. I know I need a tall roof with a hole in the top, however how do I ensure ventilation at the base of a traditional Lavvu? Do I leave a gap in the tent wall or under the door or will I have to deal with drafts? Old pictures of the tents show that the material of the sides goes right flush to the ground or very close.
Also I am having a hard time figuring out a good size for a 'one to three person' Lavvuu. I'm thinking ten foot base, ten feet tall or so? Also if I wanted to go wild and use actual reindeer hides, what should I keep in mind for assembling the entire thing? A friend said due to our rain and such in the area (Alberta prairie) that the hides would go bad. However, the Native Americans in the area used buffallo hide teepee. I just have to make sure the hides dry out before packing them up, and waterproof them.
Any other tips are welcome, thank you!
Do it in canvas (or a canvas like material) first. Then when you are happy that it works, replace the canvas with hides.
The hides themselves might pose a problem too. Commercially available hides were never produced for the purpose of providing cover on a shelter type structure. The original NA hides would have been tanned and oiled to make them a lot more durable and water repellant than the ones produced in a tannery these days. You'll need to research how the originals were prepared, get a bunch of fresh hides and go through the learning curve of replicating the original process. Otherwise it could end up a very expensive soggy lavvu. Remember, if hides soak up rainwater, they will not only leak badly, they will weigh a few tons. Will the lavvu poles be able to hold that weight? Lots to think about there.
As for ventilation, it works much like a tipi does. You need air coming in to allow the heat from the fire to draw the smoke up and out. Because they were not traditionally lined like with a tipi, the lavvu will be harder to regulate. One way is to lift an edge so the prevailing wind can get in and do the ventalation job. Another way is to get some pipe (doesn't have to be fireproof) and dig a shallow channel from outside to the hearth area, bury the pipe just below the surface, and that will allow air to be drawn in by convection right to where it is needed.
Eric
The hides themselves might pose a problem too. Commercially available hides were never produced for the purpose of providing cover on a shelter type structure. The original NA hides would have been tanned and oiled to make them a lot more durable and water repellant than the ones produced in a tannery these days. You'll need to research how the originals were prepared, get a bunch of fresh hides and go through the learning curve of replicating the original process. Otherwise it could end up a very expensive soggy lavvu. Remember, if hides soak up rainwater, they will not only leak badly, they will weigh a few tons. Will the lavvu poles be able to hold that weight? Lots to think about there.
As for ventilation, it works much like a tipi does. You need air coming in to allow the heat from the fire to draw the smoke up and out. Because they were not traditionally lined like with a tipi, the lavvu will be harder to regulate. One way is to lift an edge so the prevailing wind can get in and do the ventalation job. Another way is to get some pipe (doesn't have to be fireproof) and dig a shallow channel from outside to the hearth area, bury the pipe just below the surface, and that will allow air to be drawn in by convection right to where it is needed.
Eric
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Another thing about the size. Cut a bunch of poles. Set them up like you think might be the right size. Then throw a cheap builder's tarp over them, crawl inside and see how it feels for size. Do the false firepit thing in the middle, lay out the sleeping bags and skins on the floor, bring in a bunch of bags to simulate the luggage you'll be carrying, then imagine a ferocious storm outside and ask yourself if this will be big enough to accommodate three/four/five people trapped together and unable to venture outside for a few days non stop. That'll be worst case scenario. If not, make it bigger. Remember to allow space in there for firewood too. Lots of it.
Eric
Eric
I use a lavvu style shelter and have experimented with fires inside.
It is about 9 foot tall and 18 foot across with a hole at the apex covered with a tarp.
First I tried a fire on the ground. The covering is not flush to the ground so plenty of air comes in. A lot depended on the wind speed and direction and my set up was difficult to regulate but bottom line was that too much smoke remained inside. Of course, if you have dry, seasoned wood and make sure it is kept burning strongly smoke will be minimised, but that is hard work.
Second I tried raising the fire off ground on a grid to improve airflow and so reduce smoke. This worked up to a point. It burned better, there was less smoke but it needed constant attention as is burned so well (the fire had to be kept small so would burn out very quickly).
Third I bought a stove with a pipe that runs to about a foot from the apex and that works really well. All the smoke is sucked out of the hole at the top.
So, after a good bit of trial and error, that is my solution for reliable heat and cooking inside a lavvu
Hope it helps
It is about 9 foot tall and 18 foot across with a hole at the apex covered with a tarp.
First I tried a fire on the ground. The covering is not flush to the ground so plenty of air comes in. A lot depended on the wind speed and direction and my set up was difficult to regulate but bottom line was that too much smoke remained inside. Of course, if you have dry, seasoned wood and make sure it is kept burning strongly smoke will be minimised, but that is hard work.
Second I tried raising the fire off ground on a grid to improve airflow and so reduce smoke. This worked up to a point. It burned better, there was less smoke but it needed constant attention as is burned so well (the fire had to be kept small so would burn out very quickly).
Third I bought a stove with a pipe that runs to about a foot from the apex and that works really well. All the smoke is sucked out of the hole at the top.
So, after a good bit of trial and error, that is my solution for reliable heat and cooking inside a lavvu
Hope it helps
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Hello!
A little off topic perhaps, but does anyone have any experience with making the other type of laavu, i.e. the one cut entirely from logs, a 3/4 open hut basically? Have Googled, but nothing much came up apart from a guy who made a triangular wooden laavu in his garden that was smaller and rather different.
We have a group coming from Finland at work in the next months so hopefully I can see if anyone there is a dab hand at making laavus, but if anyone here has given it a go I would be glad to hear how you found it
A little off topic perhaps, but does anyone have any experience with making the other type of laavu, i.e. the one cut entirely from logs, a 3/4 open hut basically? Have Googled, but nothing much came up apart from a guy who made a triangular wooden laavu in his garden that was smaller and rather different.
We have a group coming from Finland at work in the next months so hopefully I can see if anyone there is a dab hand at making laavus, but if anyone here has given it a go I would be glad to hear how you found it
I have a Polish army Lavvu like this
http://www.bushcraftuk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=45793&page=1
But I find it a bit small I was thinking of adding some canvass to the bottom to make it bigger but the only problem is I would lose the mono pole design and I don't fancy lugging more poles around, do you think it would be strong enough with a monopole if I added a load of guy lines?
http://www.bushcraftuk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=45793&page=1
But I find it a bit small I was thinking of adding some canvass to the bottom to make it bigger but the only problem is I would lose the mono pole design and I don't fancy lugging more poles around, do you think it would be strong enough with a monopole if I added a load of guy lines?
Thanks for the advice.
I actually know people on a reserve who would be familiar with the tanning and waterproofing of hides the traditional way and I was going to purchase from them if they allow me.
So that's how the air flow works? Ok. I am not sure if I will have a fire inside the tent or not - we usually summer camp but I /have/ been chilled on occasion at night.
Thank you everyone for the advice. I'll probably do the canvas or a fake 'tarp' to see how big I need it before deciding on the expense of the hides. For a 10 foot Lavvu with a ten foot base (I took the measurements from a lavvuu order-site) I estimated about 175 square feet of reindeer hide. Yikes! (I worked that out to about 20 hides)
I actually know people on a reserve who would be familiar with the tanning and waterproofing of hides the traditional way and I was going to purchase from them if they allow me.
So that's how the air flow works? Ok. I am not sure if I will have a fire inside the tent or not - we usually summer camp but I /have/ been chilled on occasion at night.
Thank you everyone for the advice. I'll probably do the canvas or a fake 'tarp' to see how big I need it before deciding on the expense of the hides. For a 10 foot Lavvu with a ten foot base (I took the measurements from a lavvuu order-site) I estimated about 175 square feet of reindeer hide. Yikes! (I worked that out to about 20 hides)
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