Loch Lomond Camping Ban

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coln18

Native
Aug 10, 2009
1,125
3
Loch Lomond, Scotland
Just got an email from the National Park authority to let me know that the proposed camping ban on the east side of Loch Lomond has been passed through the Scottish Parliment.

However some amendments to the local bylaw have been passed with it, the ban will only be seasonal from March till October and wont come into effect till 1st of June this year.

Should be very interesting to see them police this one, especially with thousands of people walking and camping on the West Highland Way which passes along the entire east side of the loch. i doubt most people wanting to get away from it all will be happy to suddenly be told they must pay and stay in an official camp site.

Im not as upset about this now because i mostly avoid the area in summer time when all the neds migrate to the Lomond area and then proceed to trash it, most of my camping in the area is in winter when it is a lot more peaceful. How ever i do feel they missed the opportunity to educate the young here like they do in Scandinavian countries and provide wood for them to burn instead of them cutting down green wood, i feel all they have done is moved the problem elsewhere and then how long before that area is deemed a problem area and a local bylaw passed banning wild camping and before we know it, we are a mirror image of England with no traditional rights left and our freedoms destroyed.

Come the revolution, these people have been earmarked for cleaning out the toilets and licking the street gutters clean, these same people at the national park are the ones that thought it a good idea to cull the wallabies on the island. I really do worry for the future of the Human race.

There endith the rant

Colin
 

Shewie

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Dec 15, 2005
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I got that email yesterday too, it's got to be a good thing hasn't it ?

Are there plans to provide organised camping round those parts now Col ? If the authorities can keep the neds under control rather than letting them trash the place then it might work out. I know what you mean about the Scandinavian approach but can you honestly see it working in Scotland with the current generation, there will always be those who don't give a doo doo about the environment and don't realise it's themselves who are trashing places they drive all those miles to visit. I think a blanket ban at the moment is the best way forward until an educational approach can be conjured up, it's sad mate but I really think it's for the best right now. I've not been up that side of the loch much, only put the canoe in at Balmaha once so I'm not sure exactly where the problem areas are but I'm thinking it's the stretch of road from Dymen up the Rowardennan ?
As for the wallabies, are their numbers controlled so they have less impact on the capercaillies, it's that native vs non-native species argument again.
 

coln18

Native
Aug 10, 2009
1,125
3
Loch Lomond, Scotland
there are no plans for new campsites Rich, there are currently a couple of campsites on the east side where the ban would be, but to be honest they are really geared up for mostly caravans and as they are not really at the places where people stop to camp on the WHW they really are of no use. But to be honest i have a feeling that if you are doing the WHW, then the rangers will turn a blind eye to you camping, its really that they need the powers to stop the young ones trashing the area but as i say im interested to see which new area is about to start getting trashed by them, i kind of feel sorry for the locals in that area, id imagine it will be up loch chon/achray area they will head, just to the north of Glasgow.

I just wish we put a bit more into educating them as we were all young and daft once, i didnt start bushcraft and wild camping when i was young, to be honest it was just an excuse for a good drinking session by a beautiful spot and i was probably too messy and too loud back then, but as i say i grew into learning what nature had to offer and i just worry that these kids will loose out on the chances we all had. I would rather they were young and daft and making a mess and then were educated the right way and learned to appreciate nature rather than being banned from the great outdoors and having nothing to do, at least they are not drug dealing and fighting when up in the woods, so there must be something in them that can be sorted out with a bit of effort. i know that there will always be some that will not be educated and will always cause trouble, but as a local i worry that i wont be able to take my young 2 year old out wild camping, something i have dreamed about for the last 2 years. To me it is a case of everyone suffering because of the mindless actions of a few.

Colin
 

Chainsaw

Native
Jul 23, 2007
1,379
148
57
Central Scotland
I thought there was a plan for a semi wild camping thing, fires etc,. composting toilets, plenty trees around. Not the big open field with power points... I'm sure I saw something like that...
 

coln18

Native
Aug 10, 2009
1,125
3
Loch Lomond, Scotland
I agree, i was up Loch Achray with big Tony (Peterlee Paddler) last summer when 30 18-23 year olds turned up and i thought, "oh no here we go, no sleep and a right mess to clean up in the morning", well guess what, they brought their own wood with them, were very tidy and took all their rubbish away with them, yes they had a good time and were drunk, but were also no trouble what so ever. They werent back home causing trouble because they had nothing to do.

It is these type of people i feel sorry for, what do they do now?

As for you Locum, i bet your the kingpin for all these neds at loch lomond and that you have a weekly get together to cause trouble up there, its a major problem and you must be behind it mate. young ones now days just dont show any respect!!!! blah blah blah, no wonder they dont have any time for authority. They are constantly being written off as a collective, ones bad so their all bad.
 

Highbinder

Full Member
Jul 11, 2010
1,257
2
Under a tree
Well I don't see them having a problem policing it - in the summer time there are atleast two police patrols up and down Rowardennan road a day (don't ask how I know), and any time I've been camping along that coast in the Summer I've ran into rangers. It'll be easy for the rangers to alert the police to a camp or direct them from a parked car.

I have my doubts about them turning a blind eye to hikers but I suspect that they'll be focusing on a few certain areas more than others - the beachs just beyond Balmaha and the beachs just before Rowardennan hotel as these two spots seem to get hit worse than anywhere else I've been in the area.

Because of the enforcement of the clearway in the area (in the last year the police have definately stepped it up) it'll limit drunkard campers to the two areas I mentioned above as they're both out of the clearway in effect bottling necking the campers and minimizing the area the police would have to manage.

I'm disappointed because it is a lovely area but as I said elsewhere if you've been up there and seen the damage thats been done you can understand why they want to impose the ban. I really feel bad with the number of trees that have been destroyed, limbs cut or chopped down all together, fires set against them or under exposed root systems, rubbish left, glass bottles thrown into the fire, sh*t left uncovered with toilet paper floating about, its disguisting.

Saying that it's a bit of a detour on the WHW (instead of going up the long hill with the cobbled steps you follow the path along) but Ross Point is about half way between drymen and rowardennan I think? It's pretty quiet and more inaccessable so that's a midpoint camp spot for those on the WHW.

I guess it means I'll just have to try to get out to one of the islands this year :? or walk up further along the WHW
 
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locum76

Bushcrafter (boy, I've got a lot to say!)
Oct 9, 2005
2,772
9
47
Kirkliston
As for you Locum, i bet your the kingpin for all these neds at loch lomond and that you have a weekly get together to cause trouble up there, its a major problem and you must be behind it mate. young ones now days just dont show any respect!!!! blah blah blah, no wonder they dont have any time for authority. They are constantly being written off as a collective, ones bad so their all bad.

Yeah, I'm like the pied bag-piper of Luss. :)
 

pango

Nomad
Feb 10, 2009
380
6
69
Fife
... it's got to be a good thing hasn't it ?

Not so sure I agree with you there, Shewie. I have an ominous feeling this can too easily expand into a creeping knee-jerk reaction which will threaten the hard fought for advances made with regard to access and camping in the 2003 Land Reform Act (Scotland). This is a worrying, if predictable development which plays straight into the hands of those, often very wealthy, few who have been trying to, and succeeding in, undermine the legislation ever since it's implementation... and they have friends in high places who pretend to represent you and I.

What sense is there in making laws which are neither policed or enforced. I think it far more appropriate to prosecute and seize whatever property they're in possession of, be that tents, cars, mobile phones, etc, and make the perpetrators repair the mess they, and others, have made whilst relieving them of a substantial sum of cash + costs.

It wouldn't take Sherlock Holmes to catch them... they're 100 yards from their cars and screaming at the top of their voices next to a bonfire!

My advice is to take their registration numbers and a GR and SHOP THEM!

Here's a link to a rather protracted piece posted earlier on another thread, http://www.bushcraftuk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=70033

I find consolation in the fact that my 19 year old daughter has a conditional to study Environmental Sciences at Uni o' Dundee, so all that camping, rolling in muck, falling in burns and mashing midgies into her dinner (It's all protein, Hannah!) must have done some good after all! Unfortunately, that is just the kind of education absent from all school curricula!
 
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Toddy

Mod
Mod
Jan 21, 2005
38,990
4,639
S. Lanarkshire
A total missed opportunity to really educate, inform and change perceptions :(

Yes, the lochside is a damned mess when the numpties descend....and they'll still do it, but they'll just do it outside the proscribed area. A real NIMBY solution :(

Too disappointed and angry to write any more on this apart from wondering who's going to be making money off the 'campsites' that aren't yet set up to deal with hordes; right enought they'll have a legitimate reason to charge the visitors that they corall, won't they ?

M
 

coln18

Native
Aug 10, 2009
1,125
3
Loch Lomond, Scotland
I couldn't agree more Toddy. I reckon the Campsies will take the hit now.

You could be right mate, not sure where they will go, but they will just go somewhere else, i just think its not been thought through right.

The big danger with the national park, is that they control such a big area with numerous lochs in that area, where mostly people camp, now they know they can pass these bylaws, whats to stop them passing more.

Watch this space, within 2 years, the islands of Loch Lomond will be off limit too, they will use the excuse again about the mess and that the ospreys are being disturbed and hey presto, Scotlands most popular Loch is out of bounds to the people of Scotland.

In my opinion the National park was set up for the good of the land but also for the people of Scotland and our tourism industry, its typical of authority that as soon as they get some power, the people suffer, how many young kids have fantastic memories of their first camping trip out in the wilds with their dad, this wont happen unless the family can afford to drive for 4 hours and by pass the NP.

colin
 

Shewie

Mod
Mod
Dec 15, 2005
24,259
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Yorkshire
I thought there was a plan for a semi wild camping thing, fires etc,. composting toilets, plenty trees around. Not the big open field with power points... I'm sure I saw something like that...

I thought that was the way it was going to go too, I'm not familiar with the proposed "semi-formal" site at Sallochy Bay but if they can keep tabs on who's attending by means of tickets and a "check-in" then I don't see the problem. Let's face it, the neds who are trashing the place aren't exactly there for the wild camping aspect, just a bit of scenery and somewhere to get tanked up with their mates. Obviously I don't have the same vested interest as Col as it's not happening on my doorstep, but for the sake of preservation and conservation of the bonny banks then I'm all for the regulations. Stopping the destruction now and enforcing the new rules might just make a few people change their perception of the great outdoors, if the signs look promising then allow them to come back and see how things progress.
Speaking from down south I'm envious of the access laws you guys have up there, hence the reason I travel up almost every month, but the general lack of respect shown in some of the nicest places is a real shame, measures do need to be taken but they need to be educated ones rather than just dished out willy nilly. In the case of Lomond I don't think there's many other options right now.
 

gsfgaz

Bushcrafter (boy, I've got a lot to say!)
Jul 19, 2009
2,763
0
Hamilton... scotland
loch lomond is just the start , next it will lubnaig and loch earn as they are also getting wrecked bye neds , it's very sad
 

locum76

Bushcrafter (boy, I've got a lot to say!)
Oct 9, 2005
2,772
9
47
Kirkliston
The main damage on Loch Earn seems to come from the fisherman leaving stuff about, it is next to a busy road too. The south side of the loch is much better.
 

Toddy

Mod
Mod
Jan 21, 2005
38,990
4,639
S. Lanarkshire
It's the fishermen's rubbish that's a problem along Loch Tay as well :(
You'd think they at least would clear up behind themselves.

M
 

pango

Nomad
Feb 10, 2009
380
6
69
Fife
I have to say that I really am disappointed at the lack of reaction or response to these developments considering the hard work and hard bargaining during the consultation stage prior to implementation of the Land Reform Act (Scotland).

MCoFS (Mountaineering Council of Scotland), Scottish Rights of Way Society, the SMC (a radical turn-around from their C19th roots which, almost to a man, consisted of aristocratic land owners with a "for me but not for you" attitude to land access), a variety of countryside interests from bird-watchers to camping clubs, with active campaigning and support by Scotland's most prominent outdoors publications. And let us not forget the man who gave the ball a sound kick, The Right Honourable Robin Cook MP!
An immediately apparent problem here, is that these are disparate interest groups which will probably never unite forces again.

I found it very interesting that the Farmers didn't put up the expected belligerent stance, being satisfied with negotiating the clear distinction of out-of-bound areas such as farm steading, machinery storage, livestock, etc. I found the sudden appearance of copious styles and stock-proof gates quite astonishing, as they finally saw a huge reduction in unwitting trespassers, due to the readily available and transparent language in the form of the Scottish Outdoor Access Code, a stark contrast to the grey areas of Trespass dotted around Scots Law and the common misconception that there were no trespass laws in Scotland.

Those who didn't lend support are also of interest. The Shooting and Angling fraternities abstained from contributing, with the exception of the BASC siding itself with fox hunters, wealthy land-owners, business interests and some Local Authorities in opposition. There is also hearsay that Strathclyde Police lodged objections, probably on the grounds of logistics and resources.

It may be self explanatory that shooters and anglers saw hoards of walkers, twitchers and Toonies, etc. as a threat to their pastimes and peace of mind, but it also allows a clear view of just who your enemies are!

I posted the following on another thread in BcUK, but it clearly shows my exhilaration and sense of triumph after the 2003 Act came into force in 2005. I managed to subdue any apprehensions of the day that this elation might easily be short-lived!

I am also quite disappointed that our English compatriots didn't rise to the fore in demand of parity of rights. A sort of reversal of Tam Dalziel's lobbed spanner of the "West Lothian Question".
_______________________________________

The Land Reform Act (Scotland) 2003 and the SOAC.
I'm surprised no-one has put up a thread on the The Land Reform Act (Scotland) 2003 and the Scottish Outdoor Access Code (SOAC).
Are there any lawyers using the Forum? If so, your tuppenceworth would be most appreciated, even though any inconvenient truths will still be ignored

I've recently heard quite a number of conflicting, and I'm certain, erroneous beliefs with regard to the Act, the reason being, I think, is that the legislation for England and Wales bears little resemblance to that of Scotland, in that those unfortunate to live south of the Scottish Border are still subject to archaic, feudal trespass laws, have little rights of passage other than by legal Rights of Way and have no legal right to access, or use of waterways. I'm told that the only legitimate camping in the Lake/Peak District is above the treeline.
I'm not being smug here, so feel free to contradict if I'm mistaken.

The Land Reform Act (Scotland) 2003 states that you have a right to access "land (including inland waters, canals and the foreshore) for recreational purposes or for the purposes of carrying on a relevant educational activity", and it is written in transparent language so as to be easily understood by Joe Soap ...although it shoots itself in the foot at times with gobledygook like; " (or) for the purpose of carrying on, commercially or for profit, an activity which the person could carry on otherwise than commercially or for profit."... just to keep you on your toes!

It also allows you to camp, with the proviso... "In relation to a house, sufficient adjacent land to enable persons living there to have reasonable measures of privacy in the house to ensure that their enjoyment of the house is not unreasonably disturbed."

In juxtaposition, there is no right of access to land on which there is... " a caravan, tent or other place affording a person privacy or shelter;", so in effect, your right to privacy while camping is also enshrined by the Act, as is that of the owner of the land you're camping on!
You have a legal right to camp for "2 or 3 days in one place."

It does not give you a right of access to "Private gardens in common ownership.", or to properties like a farm steading or building or outhouses, business premises, land where machinery is stored, railways or restricted MOD land, etc. There is no right of access to land to which an entry fee was required prior to 2003, or the implementation of the legislation in 2005, and procedures are in place to facilitate exclusion from the Act. You have no right to off-road parking nor to vehicular access on private property. It is a fallacy that there is a right to vehicular access to land in public ownership, like Forestry Commission land. I did see, somewhere or other, a reference to camping not being allowed in an enclosure, or on enclosed land. It probably refers to a field with live-stock or crops (although there is right of passage around field margins), but passages like that are certainly ambiguous and inconvenient, especially as I've recently discovered a gorgeous wee mixed woodland not far from my home which is enclosed by a dry stane dyke.
Open to interpretation?

My advice would be to acquire a copy of the Scottish Outdoor Access Code (SOAC) and carry it with you whenever you go camping just in case someone decides to be a **** and phones the Polis, as you can be sure that a country polisman will not be familiar with the law and is likely to take the side of the local. It could ruin what would otherwise be a grand evening at the campfire. And you have a legal right to make a reasonable camp-fire (That's a camp-fire, not a bonfire), provided you are sensible, do not cut live wood or leave rubbish and do as much as you can to leave the site in a respectable condition. It is advised to cut turfs to prevent unsightly fire-rings and to replace the turfs after making good and sure the fire is out.

Remember the sign at Blackmount, "That which burns never returns!" and always be aware that a fire built on a peat-bed can smoulder for days or weeks before breaking into a devastating wild-fire long after you've gone on your way. Think on that!

Responsibility is placed on you to respect your surroundings, other users of the countryside and those who live there. You have a responsibility to bury human waste while being mindful of watercourses, including waste foodstuffs and pot-washing (giardia, et al), and to remove any rubbish.
If you carried it in full, you can carry it out empty.

Here is a link to the Scottish Outdoor Access Code (SOAC) http://www.outdooraccess-scotland.com/default.asp
And you should be able to pick up a copy from your local Council Office.

Here is the Act in full... http://www.opsi.gov.uk/legislation/scot ... 30002_en_1

With regard to Golf Courses, the Act, although stating "not for recreational purposes", does allow "right of passage through a Golf Course", as I found myself having to point out to a particularly vociferous golfer a few weeks ago, who seemed to think the fact he was towing a bogey around a lawn whilst wearing a pink twin-top gave him the right to insult and abuse anyone not doing likewise. I gave him a few novel ideas for alternative uses of golfing equipment before my wife and myself went on our way.

Well, that's just about all I need to know with regard to stravaiging and camping in Scotland but if you have anything to add, or corrections to make, you're most welcome.

Happy camping, and dinna burn a' the Wid! :camping:

C'mon Baby light my fire... (Jockie Feliciano)
____________________________________

Let's all cross our fingers and hope we aren't seeing its death-throws!

Cheers,

Bill.
 
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Lithril

Administrator
Admin
Jan 23, 2004
2,590
55
Southampton, UK
Interesting this one as I'm doing the "Not the West Highland Way" this year, I'll probably be spending quite a bit of the Loch Lomond section away from the route going over Ben Lomond and surrounding area. I'm assuming the ban won't affect me there?
 

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