Lacking outdoor skills

[santaman2000]

Yeah, I expect your grandfather’s experience was harsher than mine. Probably similar to my uncle’s time growing up. When I was a kid (before I was old enough to start myself) he used a pair of draft horses to pul the logs to the truck and pull them up onto the truck. By the time I started he’d switched to tractors. Somewhere in one of my closets I have an old photo of my grandfather logging with a team of oxen.

 

[Paul_B]

Late 800s when he started possibly. My great, great uncle died before my grandad was born I think in 1924. He was one of the youngest kids and his dad was 40s I think when he came along. Been at logging camps man and boy.

My grandad used to bunk off school to visit late in term and over summer I think. Actually, I suspect some stories have got mixed. Could be generation earlier. Or his dad left logging. He also worked as handyman / painter and decorator too.

These are stories told to my primary school self. while the kick back death story was vivid with the dying in brothers care and weeks from help. details are sketchy now.

It's sad really, very little contact with people who could know this history now. You don't bother storing these tales when young

 

[Janne]

Using horses to pull the timber out from the forest is coming back, as it does not destroy the forest floor.
Makes it easier to replant, and the little trees root and grow better.

Those guys, they have excellent outdoor skills!

 

[santaman2000]

Using horses to pull the timber out from the forest is coming back, as it does not destroy the forest floor.
Makes it easier to replant, and the little trees root and grow better.

Those guys, they have excellent outdoor skills!

Horse hooves do more damage than tractor tires. With either horse or tractor you still have the log dragging behind. The newer “walking” machines that carry the logs out are much gentler on the ground.

 

[santaman2000]

Yeah Paul, my memories of the old stories are beginning to run together as well.

 

[Janne]

Horse hooves do more damage than tractor tires. With either horse or tractor you still have the log dragging behind. The newer “walking” machines that carry the logs out are much gentler on the ground.

I guess those 'mechanical horses' are a bit too expensive for the average Scandinavian forest owner!

Many farmers have a mixed field crop and forest crop business, so no huge areas or volumes.

Could also be a difference as the ground is of a different composition. Recent post glacial, so the humus layer is quite thin.

 

[Robson Valley]

In the global Biome called Boreal Forest or Taiga, mechanical harvesting can do soil damage.
Besides road ruts, the soil compression asphyxiates new tree seedling root growth.
Every forest track and game trail suffers from the same effect.

That's why you see skidders and forwarders and feller-bunchers with enormous low-pressure tires
or else on tracks, to spread the compression load as widely as possible.
On some sites it is cost-effective to mechanically "rotavate" the ground to add loft and air.

Horse logging is still used here as the hoofs scruff up the soils, aerating them for considerably less compaction.
The harvesting may be really selective for sustained yield as in a managed wood lot holding.

The ultimate of course on both the west coast and for specialty tone-wood logs, is helicopter logging.
There are 2 licensed tone-wood prospectors in my district. They have an unusual set of outdoor skills.

 

[Janne]

Santaman, is this the 2020 model?

 

[Janne]

Sitting here, at the end of my lunch, typing on a desktop computer ( made in China and drinking a can ( aluminium) of San Pellegrino soft drink, Pomegranate and Orange .
Imported from Italy, over USA.

My point?
Carbon footprint like an Argentinosaurus......

 

[santaman2000]

I guess those 'mechanical horses' are a bit too expensive for the average Scandinavian forest owner!

Many farmers have a mixed field crop and forest crop business, so no huge areas or volumes.

Could also be a difference as the ground is of a different composition. Recent post glacial, so the humus layer is quite thin.

They were invented in the Scandinavian countries specifically for those forests.

In the global Biome called Boreal Forest or Taiga, mechanical harvesting can do soil damage....

 

[Robson Valley]

See the feet to spread the load?
Will be many, many thousands of machine hours before those are industry standards.
Maybe to replace horses. I like to watch the horse teams, they never need to be told what to do.
Here, it's usually a pulp fiber crop to be clear-cut like a wheat field. Same thing, really.

 

[Janne]

Cool stuff. But expensive no doubt!
I tried to find out the use of them in Sweden and Norway, but no luck. Lots of articles about horses in forestry though.

Trees are harvested mainly during winters, if the timbers are being used for quality products. Windows, frames, doors.
Had a friend whose trees were made into bed frames and doors. Local companies in the area where I lived.

Brio, you all know the toys, used beech wood from Denmark. Brio company was 300 meters from my house.

 

[GuestD]

The unfortunate thing is, given the capital costs of commercial timber harvesting equipment, once working, output is the greatest consideration to attain profitability. Being kind to the environment, as ever, will greatly increase the cost of the end product. Timber harvesting in Scotland is an all year round "thing" and compared to what it used to be like when using squads of cutters and tractors, modern tackle leaves the forrest bed looking like the Somme.

 

[Woody girl]

Sitting here, at the end of my lunch, typing on a desktop computer ( made in China and drinking a can ( aluminium) of San Pellegrino soft drink, Pomegranate and Orange .
Imported from Italy, over USA.

My point?
Carbon footprint like an Argentinosaurus......

No wonder you don't like extinction rebellion ! And you said you were doing your bit??? Now you boast about having a carbon footprint like a dinosaur !

 

[Janne]

I think you missed the irony?



Our family have been recycling and the other environmentally good stuff (we think) for decades, but can not avoid some stuff, not unless we scale back to an earlier era life style.
Virtually impossible for us to avoid some major CO2 contributors. We all can do our bit, but how much is that worth?
I guess only a few measly % of our individual footprint.
You yourself have described that you take off the plastic packaging in the shop, right? (was it you?)
That does not count for one iota. Zilch.
The plastic has been made, and will be discarded ( hopefully recycled).
What we need to do is stop producing. stop the circle - Manufacture cheap goods, use, discard - buy new cheap goods.
We need to increase quality so the item lasts. Increase the cost so people can not afford to buy new at a whim.

Do you know the resources that went into producing the computers we use to post here? From mining the Rare Earth ore and drilling for the crude oil, , down to the shipment to the store that sold it to you?

Huge.

We all here are contributing to the CO2, even if we think we are doing the correct things.
Extinction Rebellion? Why on Earth should I support them? They are just as bad as everybody else, same, if not larger, CO2 footprint, , but they think they are better than most, only because they have time to shout and misbehave.

I do admire and salute their employers though. Not everybody would allow an employee to take indefinite time off work!! But they did1

 

[petrochemicals]

Well Hughjanne the worst things are the ginormous amount of heating, transport and waste, shipping something made from China isn't that bad (even though the manufacture may create massive polution). Air from Kenya for your Mange tout, wine and water usage are all what you would see as green but certainly are not halpful

I think you missed the irony?



Our family have been recycling and the other environmentally good stuff (we think) for decades, but can not avoid some stuff, not unless we scale back to an earlier era life style.
Virtually impossible for us to avoid some major CO2 contributors. We all can do our bit, but how much is that worth?
I guess only a few measly % of our individual footprint.
You yourself have described that you take off the plastic packaging in the shop, right? (was it you?)
That does not count for one iota. Zilch.
The plastic has been made, and will be discarded ( hopefully recycled).
What we need to do is stop producing. stop the circle - Manufacture cheap goods, use, discard - buy new cheap goods.
We need to increase quality so the item lasts. Increase the cost so people can not afford to buy new at a whim.

Do you know the resources that went into producing the computers we use to post here? From mining the Rare Earth ore and drilling for the crude oil, , down to the shipment to the store that sold it to you?

Huge.

 

[Woody girl]

I don't have a computer ..or a tv..... or a car... or many other things. Yes I have a bike with a 2,000 miles per year limit as part of my insurance agreement. I've only done 500 miles or so this year. I no longer buy supermarket veg or meat wrapped in plastic. Or take a plastic bag when offered. I even say no to paper bags now as I've made some reusable muslin ones... milk I use a reusable glass bottles. now that's realy trying. Each week I try to change something. Even started making my own toothpaste. Never more than one light on at a time.often walk round the house with a head torch on rather than switch on a light. If we all try then yes we can have an impact. If we all shrug our shoulders and say it's not worth it as everyone else is keeping on doing the same thing so my efforts will not matter then that's either defeatist or lazy. Educate your family and neighbours. It may take time but lead by example and you are on the way to winning. There will always be people who think that just recycling will be enough and are proud of themselves but just look at their overflowing general rubbish bin and it tells a different story!
Taking the plastic off a cauliflower and giving it back does not save plastic at that moment true... but it sends the message that it is not wanted to the company. They provide it... they bear the cost of disposal. If everyone did it then they would think twice! And the problem will be solved. All my friends do it now, and actually taken any veg shopping to a new greengrocer that has opened up with a zero plastic bag policy... so make your voice heard and it may take a bit of time but it does work. I've been asked to make some of my muslin bags to sell in the shop for his customers. So a year of walking my talk has had results and gained me a small amount of income into the bargain.. win win. What permenant changes have you made in your community ?

 

[Janne]

Well Hughjanne the worst things are the ginormous amount of heating, transport and waste, shipping something made from China isn't that bad (even though the manufacture may create massive polution). Air from Kenya for your Mange tout, wine and water usage are all what you would see as green but certainly are not halpful

Absolutely correct. But You know the crap ship burn? Cheapest possible bunker oil. We get cruise ships here. Some depart at sun set, the time where many of us go down to a bar( facing the sun set). When they rev up those engines - disgusting. The smell if the breeze wafts towards you is disgusting.

Us Consumers can make a huge difference by buying correctly.
Do you know you can buy tree ripened Mango slices in UK?

Flown in from South America.....fresh, on the shelves within 24 hours within picking....

 

[Woody girl]

I like mangoes. Does that mean I shouldn't eat them or bananas or oranges and lemons or use pepper or cinnamon or rice or cous cous (I can't eat gluten) etc etc to shop ethicly? How much of what you eat is imported.... go take a look!

 

[Janne]

Without huge sacrifices, we will not be able to achieve a 'human zero carbon increase' ( I hope it is understood what I mean here).
Huge!
That is why I mentioned a pre-industrial system. Lots of people need to vanish though....

Food? I know how much was imported into UK. Here, even worse. Much more is imported. but, if we use our sensible brains, we can LESSEN the C footprint.
Eat local apples instead of the Brazilian Mango. Eat British Pears instead of the Bananas (Brazil, Ecuador)

No, I truly believe changes will happen, bad changes. But, Earth will survive, ecosystems will change and adopt.
Life will survive. Just not as we know it.
Even with a 'human zero carbon increase' Earth will still get warmer. Some Millenia more, then get colder, until we hit the next Ice Age.

Couscous is toasted 'pasta' from wheat. Which one do you buy as a Gluten intolerant person?

I find that the brand Osem made in Israel agrees well with me. I am a bit Gluten intolerant. And Lactose. Goes hand in hand with my internal problems.