Knives/knife law.

  • UPDATE - The main upgrade is now finished. The site should now be functioning as normal, I will be making tweaks over the weekend, particularly to look of the site. If you notice something is broken or have any comments please let me know. Many thanks Matt (Lithril)

Fadcode

Full Member
Feb 13, 2016
2,168
493
Cornwall
From what i can make out, the OP feels he would like to be able to carry any knife he likes, as he would enjoy the freedom to do so, However he also feels that certain branches of society, the villains, should not be able to carry knives at all, and he feels this would curtail the levels of knife crime prevalent in society, and he agrees that certain types of knife should be banned, which they are at the moment, he feels also that although the present knife laws are against his freedom, he feels that they are neccessary to curb knife violence.

Although the present knife laws have been in force for some time, the level of knife crime seems to be still going up.......................so obviously the villains are taking no notice of the present laws, and wont be bothered by any new ones..

Banning further types of knives, will in my opinion have no effect on the levels of knife crime....................................the majority of knife crime normally involves either home made knives or what we would call kitchen knives.
Unless all knives were banned, it is unlikely knife crime will ever decrease, and even then it is unlikely to do so.

There are many types of knives and sharp implements that are quite legal to carry, which could be used to kill or maim, so unless it was made illegal to carry any knife or sharp implement at all, it is unlikely that the levels of knife crime will abate. Anyone determined to cause havoc will find something to do it with whether its a knife, knitting needle, spike, etc, etc,

Knife crime itself is a major problem in society, and the Govt has to take steps to deal with it, up to now it has only shown knee jerk reactions, and as the level of crime continues to go up, then it is safe to assume it hasn't had the desired affect. The only affect the knife laws have had is on the likes of us who now think twice about carrying or showing our knives in public.

The OP asks for our opinions on the matter, and then argues against the points he does not agree with, which is what debating is all about, these questions have been asked many times on many forums, and there is in my opinion no answer, and if the Govt continues on the path it is on, we will find a lot of our freedoms restricted without it having any effect on knife crime itself.

Tackling the problems of gangs, depraved areas, lack of education and job prospects, are in my opinion some of the areas that need to be tackled, as well as higher custodial sentences for those found guilty of serious knife crimes.............................but all these need money to be spent, and that is unlikely to happen. Also we need full transparency with the reporting of knife related crime, for instance, what sort of knife was used, was it in a domestic setting, were both parties armed, etc, etc,

I also feel we need some sort of voice to protect our interests as bushcrafters, the public at large have no interest in our way of life, and to some we are seen as troublemakers, we appreciate the TV stars who carry on our way of life, but I dont remember any of them speaking up against the proposed laws regarding knives, so we are a minority, and we need to be noticed for the good things we do.
 
  • Like
Reactions: KenThis

Janne

Guest
Feb 10, 2016
12,368
2,251
Grand Cayman, Norway, Sweden
You are correct, people like Ray Mears, Mouse Grylls and the others that make a living and good money from bushcraft ( where knives are essential) and money from putting their names behind knife designs and brands, should speak up.

Restrictions only restrict the law abiding citizen.
Or make the normally law abiding citizen into a technical criminal, if he chooses to disregard a stupid law.
 

daveO

Native
Jun 22, 2009
1,326
405
South Wales
What would you like Ray Mears to say? I don't see any law that affects him. Why would he put his reputation on the line and risk being seen to support laws that would increase knife crime.

The latest knife ban was against zombie killer knives. Does anyone seriously think that is a bad law? You can still buy the exact same knives just without the stupid logos and stuff that would tarnish the reputation of serious tools by association.
 
  • Like
Reactions: KenThis

Fadcode

Full Member
Feb 13, 2016
2,168
493
Cornwall
What would you like Ray Mears to say? I don't see any law that affects him. Why would he put his reputation on the line and risk being seen to support laws that would increase knife crime.

The latest knife ban was against zombie killer knives. Does anyone seriously think that is a bad law? You can still buy the exact same knives just without the stupid logos and stuff that would tarnish the reputation of serious tools by association.
Of course it wasn't a bad law, I haven't read in the papers about any Zombies being killed so it must have worked
 

KenThis

Full Member
Jun 14, 2016
825
119
Cardiff
I think you've rather succinctly listed some of my thoughts on the matter Fadcode.
Where my thoughts differ is my belief that the current knife laws have been good for knife crime in general. I'm not familiar with the crime statistics but any rise in knife crime I would ascribe to sociological changes (general reduction in police and increase in crime) rather than the failing of the laws.
I understand that some flaunting of the knife laws will always happen and for some there will be no deterrent to avoid using weapons. But I still believe the current laws do more good than harm.

The reason for my troubled thinking is I'm unsure about the proposed changes and whether I'm against them because they might impact on me personally or because they are not fit for purpose.
I'm also struggling on my subjective feelings on different knives/blades. I feel like I could distinguish between tools and weapons and draw a neat line. I think I could identify people who I'd be happy to see carrying knives and those that I wouldn't trust to. But what makes my list right? If it's not objective then can it be fair? We have the 'good reason' clause and I feel that the majority would probably agree that some knives would have no reason to be carried. But then why should someone with a penchant for 'zombie' knives or daggers be treated differently to bush-crafters (although I still think they should), one mans meat being another's poison so to speak.

I know I have trouble sometimes explaining my thoughts but I thought it would be helpful for me to come to some conclusions by canvassing opinions. As I hoped I wasn't the only person who felt this way about knives and the knife laws in the UK.
 

daveO

Native
Jun 22, 2009
1,326
405
South Wales
The chavs and the street gangs make the zombies look like agreeable company.

What would you guys carry as an edc if knife laws were relaxed? In a time when men are still mocked for carrying anything that could be labelled a 'man bag' and anything clipped to your belt makes you batman or inspector gadget would you really upgrade from a folding pocket knife? It makes me wonder if people would begrudge the current laws so much if we were just allowed our locking folders back. Even then the current culture is so knife adverse that beyond the safe red scaled SAK not much is acceptable to use in public.
 
  • Like
Reactions: KenThis

Janne

Guest
Feb 10, 2016
12,368
2,251
Grand Cayman, Norway, Sweden
When I grew up most guys carried a knife that today is made by Morakniv.

That length of blade is universally most useful. No Katana, no British EDC.

I do not think you should worry about past bans, but bans in the future.
DaveO:
RM and Grylls et al are well known to the broad public. If they say something maybe people (incl state) will start thinking about these things.
Why should they risk anything? By thinking that you are implying that knive ownership breed criminality?

If everybody is quiet about everything, then we are letting the states introduce anything they like on a whim.

The EDC regulations, have they done anything to lessen knife crime?
No, all it has done is making life more difficult for people like us.
 

Robson Valley

Full Member
Nov 24, 2014
8,148
1,299
McBride, BC
Weird looking knives brandished about in public here is a fairly good way to get shot by the police.
They even shoot and kill wood carvers who won't put their tools down. No kidding. Wood carving in public
is a dangerous sport. I do it in demos just to see the reactions from the public. They don't care.

My Pacific Northwest native style wood carving tools might look dangerous. Yes they are, to a piece of cedar.

I'm sure we have some really arcane knife laws. Never ever read about them in the newspapers and I won't bust a knuckle
to find them online.

I'm almost willing to bet that we have stranger knife laws than in the UK, if we looked for them.
No body cares. Do your jobs with the knives you need and don't peel oranges in the pub with them.
 
  • Like
Reactions: KenThis

santaman2000

M.A.B (Mad About Bushcraft)
Jan 15, 2011
16,213
798
63
Florida
I think you're being obtuse.
If one has a knife and gets into an altercation then one may use the knife to attack/defend themselves.
As I understand it in the UK at least using a weapon whether to attack or defend is illegal, even if morally justified.
As I pointed out at the beginning this is UK centric. The USA system of being able to defend ones life and property at any cost is not really appropriate.
Also in any altercation with two people pulling knives who can say who is the 'criminal'? Surely both must be guilty?
Who told you we can defend ourselves and property at all costs? Most states limit allowable self defense to only AFTER you've exercised your DUTY to retreat (in other words, if you can avoid confrontation by leaving/running away you have the duty to do so) This is waived in two cases: 1) Castle doctrine applies in EVERY state (you have no duty to retreat from your own home) or 2) Stand Your Ground which applies in SOME states (if you have a legal right to be in a given place, you have no obligation to retreat) But in EVERY case, in EVERY state, you have the obligation to defend only using the force that's appropriate to the threat, In other words you can only use deadly force IF a reasonable person would believe that they are in imminent danger of death or serious bodily harm (usually considered as permanent harm such as loss of limb, eyesight, etc.)

To deny anybody this basic human right is criminal in and of itself; anywhere in the universe.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: Robson Valley

mrcharly

Bushcrafter (boy, I've got a lot to say!)
Jan 25, 2011
3,246
33
North Yorkshire, UK
Ken, if someone attacks you are allowed to defend yourself (in the UK) with anything that comes to hand. That could be a frying pan, a golf club, a bottle. It could be a knife. If you were walking down the street and someone threw a punch at you, you retaliated by stabbing them, that would disproportionate response. If they broke into your home, were screaming they were going to murder you, you stabbed them - that would be different.
You aren't allowed to carry something around for the purpose of self defence. Nor are you allowed to pursue and attack someone if they are no longer attacking you (even if they have previously inflicted grievous injury on you).
 

daveO

Native
Jun 22, 2009
1,326
405
South Wales
I do not think you should worry about past bans, but bans in the future.
DaveO:
RM and Grylls et al are well known to the broad public. If they say something maybe people (incl state) will start thinking about these things.
Why should they risk anything? By thinking that you are implying that knive ownership breed criminality?

If everybody is quiet about everything, then we are letting the states introduce anything they like on a whim.

The EDC regulations, have they done anything to lessen knife crime?
No, all it has done is making life more difficult for people like us.
I wouldn't say knife ownership breeds criminality but you have to show responsibility. You have to remember that Bear Grylls is a Chief Scout and as such I imagine he will publically stand by the Scout code of conduct for using/carrying knives http://members.scouts.org.uk/supportresources/1515/what-is-the-scout-policy-on-the-use-of-knives The Scouts are even more strict on knife carry than the UK legal system going by the info on their website which I find quite surprising. They confirm it's legal for anyone to carry a SAK but go on to discourage anyone carrying knives even to a scout meeting unless necessary. If anyone in the UK would stand up for the right to carry knives I would have thought it would be someone like them. It's really the Scouts who have the image that they teach young boys to be prepared and to use tools like knives responsibly. A few links on Google suggest the Scouts have met with MPs to discuss knive law and demonstrated how their teaching helps breed responsibility with knives.

Again though I doubt the Scouts have any problem with the current UK knife law as it is fit for their purposes. The only debatable point is the case law precedent for locking folders being classed as fixed blades but if anything that is more a case for reforming our crappy legal system where one lawyer or judge can override the law and make a mockery of all the reviews and consultations that take place over months or even years to define a law in the first place.
 
  • Like
Reactions: KenThis

Fadcode

Full Member
Feb 13, 2016
2,168
493
Cornwall
I think you should take into account that the Scouts are a registered charity and a business and will abide by any laws without question, they are totally different from the early days, they are molly coddled today, they arent even allowed to sit on the grass when they are eating, in case they eat something they shouldn't, at one time you had to, and be proud carry a knife as you would always be doing something that required a knife, the basic sheath knife, today knife use is done very little, perhaps they should change there motto to "Be Prepared, if it's legal"
 

daveO

Native
Jun 22, 2009
1,326
405
South Wales
I think you should take into account that the Scouts are a registered charity and a business and will abide by any laws without question, they are totally different from the early days, they are molly coddled today, they arent even allowed to sit on the grass when they are eating, in case they eat something they shouldn't, at one time you had to, and be proud carry a knife as you would always be doing something that required a knife, the basic sheath knife, today knife use is done very little, perhaps they should change there motto to "Be Prepared, if it's legal"
Ray Mears and Bear Grylls are basically trademark business names too though and they make a lot of money selling sharp things. The Scouts are also sponsered by Victorinox and loads of their badges and skills still seem to be knife based https://members.scouts.org.uk/supportresources/4000/activity-pack-survival-skills-activity-badge/?cat=7,64,178&moduleID=10 Big legal disclaimers on the resource sheets about knives though. I think it's a big leap to say they're molly coddling the kids but the litigation happy culture we live in probably has a lot to do with it. I wonder what the knife use risk assessments look like.

It's a big difference to American culture though I'll admit. I had an email today with a link to this article for the '18 best pocket knives' https://www.popularmechanics.com/home/tools/g2975/best-pocket-knives/ Most look like rubbish to me but you get the idea. Take any of those out in public over here and prepare to have a chat with a policeman. My current favourite folding knife is on there though and it's in my pocket rigth now as I've been using it a lot today around the house. I better take it out actually before I take the dog for his walk.
 

mousey

Bushcrafter (boy, I've got a lot to say!)
Jun 15, 2010
2,210
252
38
NE Scotland
I'm a cub leader, I wouldn't like to be responsible for any of them hurting themselves with a knife, not that I think they'd necessarily mishandle them, but accidents do happen and as said before 'litigation happy culture'...

I've been on camps with scouts where they have been given instruction and a certain amount of freedom with axes and knifes. The older scouts [explorers 14-18] seem to be mostly joiners/ gardeners/ handymen and in the building trade. On important occasions I have seen the older ones with kilt uniform and knife on the belt.

I don't use a knife very often, I have forgotten about a knife on my belt and gone to the shops. If I was stopped I doubt I'd have *much* of a problem with the coppers.

I don't think we need any more knife restrictions, I also think the ones we have are relatively sensible as long as your not up against a jobsworth and/ or your not being a complete pillock.



@ janne Mouse Grylls? - just interested what the connection is..

, Mouse Grylls
 

daveO

Native
Jun 22, 2009
1,326
405
South Wales
You mean that you are afraid of being body searched by a member of the Police force when you walk your dog?
Not really. They don't care around here but it doesn't hurt to be cautious. I walked up to the woods last year and a bloke was just packing up after shooting targets with an air rifle. It's a public place and he had no permission so he was breaking the law. He had his wife with him and a toddler in a pram though so not exactly a worry to anyone but it was still a bit of a stupid place to go shooting as there's loads of dog walkers and kids around that area. We both walked out of the woods towards the vehicle access point where a police van was parked up with 2 officers standing around looking like they were after someone. The guy had the gun in a case slung over his shoulder and as he walked past the police they didn't even give him a second glance and went back to picking through some litter.
 

Janne

Guest
Feb 10, 2016
12,368
2,251
Grand Cayman, Norway, Sweden
Do not be cautions, stand for your rights!

Scouting (used to?) have a very important function. Teaching kids bushcraft, how to do stuff, basic survival, fishing, respect for nature, respect for elders/parents. Tracking, being alone in the forest daytime, night time, navigation.
Education in safe handling of sharp/pointed objects was important too.
I belonged to Scouting ( you call them Brownies?)from age 6 or 7, and was gifted a knife from my dad ( himself a Scout before and after WW2 and HJ during the war) with pride a couple of months after I joined.

I started thinking of Bear Grylls as Mouse Grylls when it came out he preferred a nice hotel instead of the nature when they were filming.
In fact, most stuff he has been doing is heavily arranged.
RM - respect.