Knives/knife law.

[daveO]

Have you actually thought about what you wrote?

Applying for a driving licence or gun licence does NOT involve being judged and awarded points throughout your life. Who the hell is to be judge and juror in your New Society, throughout the persons life. What about job changes? Retirees? Some who have a sterner view than others? It is Orwellian, Nazist, and bloody patronising to imagine a system where a group of human beings have the control to "reward" an individual. Not to mention utterly unworkable.

So it is Naziist to get people to take a test to drive a car now? It is Orwellian for people to have to have a gun licence? Patronising that you have to get certain A-levels to go to university? What if an A-level examiner is sterner than others? Do you need to retake a driving test to change a job? If you retire does that stop you doing anything in life? Do you really believe you do anything in this society that doesn't require someone to be 'judge and juror'?

Why is it so hard to imagine a system where continuing education is actively encouraged and rewarded over living in ignorance? We are already offered education opportunities in various guises throughout life but you can pick and choose if you want to take them. In my borough the level of deprivation is bad enough that special teams are put together by the council to try and encourage better family life. My wife has worked with them and while some cases are lost causes there are people in desperate need of help and guidance. When we had our baby we were offered free classes to prepare us for child care because it was assumed we wouldn't be fit parents when friends in the adjacent boroughs weren't even offered basic anti-natal classes because they live in a 'better' area. How is that fair? We've just had people posting that they've signed up for first aid classes so why shouldn't they get some kind of reward for that?

Dog ownership is a great example. You can go out and buy a dog with no idea how to look after a dog, how to train it, feed it, or even how to choose a suitable dog. Most people do their research, educate themselves and do a good job of it but the shelters are full of the failed examples and the money to look after them has to come from somewhere. We have a society where you can impulse buy an animal and then if it doesn't work out it's someone else's problem. Is that less crazy than suggesting people have to obtain a level of education before being allowed a pet?

People say it's unworkable but you just need to look at how much money is spent bailing people out of self-made problems to see that the funds are there to do something like this. Why spend millions helping people get out of debt rather than investing in teaching them how budget properly. The tools are already there but you can lead a horse to water etc. Look at the amount we spend in landfill taxes, recycling target fines and on cleaning up litter when most people don't even know how or what to do with their recycling.

but yes this is tongue in cheek as it is an impossible dream. It's easy to paint a picture of how well it could work but I doubt anyone would vote for me if I started spouting this nonsense and running for Prime Minister

 

[Fadcode]

So it is Naziist to get people to take a test to drive a car now? It is Orwellian for people to have to have a gun licence? Patronising that you have to get certain A-levels to go to university? What if an A-level examiner is sterner than others? Do you need to retake a driving test to change a job? If you retire does that stop you doing anything in life? Do you really believe you do anything in this society that doesn't require someone to be 'judge and juror'?

Why is it so hard to imagine a system where continuing education is actively encouraged and rewarded over living in ignorance? We are already offered education opportunities in various guises throughout life but you can pick and choose if you want to take them. In my borough the level of deprivation is bad enough that special teams are put together by the council to try and encourage better family life. My wife has worked with them and while some cases are lost causes there are people in desperate need of help and guidance. When we had our baby we were offered free classes to prepare us for child care because it was assumed we wouldn't be fit parents when friends in the adjacent boroughs weren't even offered basic anti-natal classes because they live in a 'better' area. How is that fair? We've just had people posting that they've signed up for first aid classes so why shouldn't they get some kind of reward for that?

Dog ownership is a great example. You can go out and buy a dog with no idea how to look after a dog, how to train it, feed it, or even how to choose a suitable dog. Most people do their research, educate themselves and do a good job of it but the shelters are full of the failed examples and the money to look after them has to come from somewhere. We have a society where you can impulse buy an animal and then if it doesn't work out it's someone else's problem. Is that less crazy than suggesting people have to obtain a level of education before being allowed a pet?

People say it's unworkable but you just need to look at how much money is spent bailing people out of self-made problems to see that the funds are there to do something like this. Why spend millions helping people get out of debt rather than investing in teaching them how budget properly. The tools are already there but you can lead a horse to water etc. Look at the amount we spend in landfill taxes, recycling target fines and on cleaning up litter when most people don't even know how or what to do with their recycling.

but yes this is tongue in cheek as it is an impossible dream. It's easy to paint a picture of how well it could work but I doubt anyone would vote for me if I started spouting this nonsense and running for Prime Minister

if you re-read what you have said here, its easy to see why it wont work, unfortunately in this world we live in, there are people, who just cannot cope with what life throws at them, and they need our help, there are other areas where people get themselves in deep trouble and again we should help them, we need to be a caring society, not a 2 class society,

There are some things that are not correct, you do not need "A" levels to go to university, you may have to retake a driving test when you change jobs,when you retire this restricts the jobs you can do, and what about disabled people, people with learning difficulties, what encouragement is it to them if they cant compete and achieve the rewards, the money spent in landfill taxes go back to the Govt, and so do the fines for not meeting targets etc,the weakest point in your argument, which does have some merits, is that you would end up with people doing it , not for self pregression but for the awards, remember a while back when people were given cash rewards for stopping smoking, losing weight etc, coming off benefits, etc,they soon fizzled out because they dont work.
I do think we should get back on track though in this debate, and deal with the questions raised by the OP

 

[santaman2000]

We as nature lovers do not have a ‘need’ for knives.
We can spend all our time in the outdoors without one, we just have to modify our habits and ways.

Can you really even demonstrate a "need" to spend time outdoors?

 

[santaman2000]

.....It is Orwellian for people to have to have a gun licence?......

Yes. It is.

 

[santaman2000]

.......There are some things that are not correct,.........when you retire this restricts the jobs you can do.....

Why? What does being retired from one job (and drawing retirement from that employer) have to do with seeking a job with another employer?

 

[mrcharly]

I might be about to be shot down in flames, partly because I'm going to make a very broad generalisation. Someone said 'stand up for your rights'; they don't live in the UK and it made me think that it is probably time to mention a fundamental difference between UK and North American (specifically USA) laws and rights.

In the USA (as I understand it), there are rights granted by their constitution. This is hence fiercely defended by the citizens and infringement regarded as a serious matter. Laws and individuals actions should not infringe the constitution.

In the UK, individuals have the right to do pretty much what they like unless there is a law that says they aren't allowed to do that. It isn't that clear cut now - we have the European Convention on Human Rights, which is a bit more vague than most laws.

So the phrase 'stand up for your rights', unless you are talking about something described in the ECHR, does not have any meaning in the UK.

 

[Chainsaw]

Chinese seem to be implementing something they are terming a 'social credit' system but can quickly be flipped to 'state-directed punishment' Longish article here

That's a big fat no from me

Cheers
Alan

 

[Fadcode]

Why? What does being retired from one job (and drawing retirement from that employer) have to do with seeking a job with another employer?

There are many reasons that you are restricted, for example age, many Police, Army, Firemen are compulsory retired at a certain age, meeting health criteria for certain jobs, etc, over here its very unlikely you would get a decent job after the age of say 55,especially if it involved training, unless you have certain skills, many jobs obtained after retirement would more than likely be minimum wage.
I myself retired 6 years ago, and have worked since on a regular basis, as I am lucky enough to have a skill that is needed. If however I wanted to retrain to do something else I doubt the opportunity would exist.

 

[Broch]

Have you all seen The Orville - series 1 episode 7 "Majority Rule" - if not, watch it for amusement sake - what happens when society decides

 

[Janne]

Life is not fair......
Sucks sometimes, is jolly sometimes!

If media stopped reporting about those vile knife and acid crime, maybe much less would happen?
Copycat crime is quite common, specially amongst youth.

Newspapers and Tv is full of negative, depressing news.
What happened to uplifting, happy news?

 

[Janne]

Can you really even demonstrate a "need" to spend time outdoors?

No. Wake up, eat some vitamin enriched gruel, go to work, go to supermarket on the way home, eat, watch the latest state sponsored news on BBC, sleep.

As there is no actual 'need' in visiting nature, why allow people be able to buy and use (uncontrolled) a potentially lethal weapon?

(devil's advocating here.)

 

[Laurentius]

In UK for the boys there are beavers 6-8, cubs 8-10 scout 10-14 explorers 14-18 then 'network' I think it's called for adults.

for girls rainbows, brownies then I'm not sure, but girls are allowed in the boys catergories, not sure if the other way round is acceptable?

Beavers is mostly indoors as they are quite young, cubs was pretty much indoors until me and another guy started and we try to get them out during the summer. the same with scouts, as it's pretty cold and dark most of the time up here in the winter. Again I'm not confident enough to have them using sharp things but when in scouts they start their own fires and cook stuff on them and have a couple of camps a year, I took my hammock on the last one which gathered a bit of interest. The older scouts had their own knives [one even had a chain saw, as he's a forestry type, as part of using the site he had to clear fallen trees - good for the camp fire] the younger scouts had access to saws, axes and knifes for various projects.

Well so far as I recall I first started using knives, that is to say sub 3 inch folding blades in the 8-10 range.

 

[Laurentius]

We as nature lovers do not have a ‘need’ for knives.
We can spend all our time in the outdoors without one, we just have to modify our habits and ways.

I am not sure if that is intended a serious post or not, but you may as well say you can spend all your life as a gardener without a spade or a pair of secateurs.

 

[Janne]

No, I was serious. Think about it.
Humans lived for hundreds of millennia without sharp metal tools we have today. A piece of flint or sharp other rock. Sharpened bone.
Write when you 'absolutely' need a knife and I will show you a knife less alternative!

Lots of our ways and customs were created around a knife or sharp metal implement.

 

[Fadcode]

No, I was serious. Think about it.
Humans lived for hundreds of millennia without sharp metal tools we have today. A piece of flint or sharp other rock. Sharpened bone.
Write when you 'absolutely' need a knife and I will show you a knife less alternative!

Lots of our ways and customs were created around a knife or sharp metal implement.

getting the back off an expensive watch without damaging the case

 

[Janne]

The vast majority of mid range and expensive watches have a caseback that screws in.
Square watches like JLC Reverso and some others have screw retained backs.
Pop off backs is fairly common on vintage watches.
For those you have a special tool, looking like a very small, sturdy knife. The edge of those is not knife sharp.

A pop off caseback watch, new or well restored vintage, has rarely a WR rating of more than 3 ATM, so not even recommended to shower in.

 

[Robson Valley]

A flint edge is a magnificent prep tool. Sharp to the molecular level and non magnetic.
My flint blades aren't even hafted. Unimportant for meat cutting.

 

[santaman2000]

I might be about to be shot down in flames, partly because I'm going to make a very broad generalisation. Someone said 'stand up for your rights'; they don't live in the UK and it made me think that it is probably time to mention a fundamental difference between UK and North American (specifically USA) laws and rights.

In the USA (as I understand it), there are rights granted by their constitution. This is hence fiercely defended by the citizens and infringement regarded as a serious matter. Laws and individuals actions should not infringe the constitution.

In the UK, individuals have the right to do pretty much what they like unless there is a law that says they aren't allowed to do that. It isn't that clear cut now - we have the European Convention on Human Rights, which is a bit more vague than most laws.

So the phrase 'stand up for your rights', unless you are talking about something described in the ECHR, does not have any meaning in the UK.

I believe it was Janne who said "stand up for your rights. He's on an island nation that's actually part of the Commonwealth. You aren't quite correct regarding our rights in the US. Yes, some rights are enumerated in the Constitution but they are not granted by it. First, a little background about the "Bill of Rights" (the first 10 amendments to the Constitution. During deliberations. The side against including them made as an argument the very description you give as UK rights (that anything not prohibited by a law was indeed within your rights) The side for their inclusion argued that rights in and of themselves regardless of any laws (the very definition of the word "rights" in their minds) The inclusion of specific rights in the first 10 amendments wasn't a grant of rights to the people, but a limit on government. Or as John Kennedy put it, "The rights of man come not from the generosity of the state, but from the hand of God."

The real difference between us is attitude. If you truly believe government authority to restrict anything then you will submit. If you believe otherwise, you resist.

There are many reasons that you are restricted, for example age, many Police, Army, Firemen are compulsory retired at a certain age, meeting health criteria for certain jobs, etc, over here its very unlikely you would get a decent job after the age of say 55,especially if it involved training, unless you have certain skills, many jobs obtained after retirement would more than likely be minimum wage.
I myself retired 6 years ago, and have worked since on a regular basis, as I am lucky enough to have a skill that is needed. If however I wanted to retrain to do something else I doubt the opportunity would exist.

SO not really a legal restriction but one arising out of practicalities? Not really that different between us then. (although there are laws here against "age discrimination." which are pretty easy to get around)

 

[mousey]

Well so far as I recall I first started using knives, that is to say sub 3 inch folding blades in the 8-10 range

Quite, - my children use knives, axes, hammers, screwdrivers etc and have done at a young age [6ish - my eldest is now 11]

I'm just not comfortable with giving other peoples children the same access, purely on the chance something could happen. I spend 2 years with the kids before they move up, some would be responsible some would not. Perhaps responsible is not the right word, maybe careful enough.

 

[Janne]

Yes, I stand up to my rights, no matter where I live, be it Norway, Sweden, UK or here on island ( that has a modified British legal system).
I know absolutely nothing about the various legal systems, not my area of profession.

It is my right to wear a blade when I am in Nature, if I deem I have a need for it. My needs: Daytrip - folder. Overnighter a fixed blade. Longer - two fixed blades.

If I would be stopped by a police officer, I will tell him my need of them if asked.
It is not our business to prove we are not criminals or are breaking the law. That is his job.
Innocent until proven otherwise is the principle in all civilized legal systems!

Also, remember, the Police is the servant of the Public, his job is to protect us from criminals.

In Scandinavia, our various associations have a ongoing and fruitful communications with the authorities.
For example, silencers were banned in Sweden. The hunting association approached the state and could prove the benefits of silenced rifles. Silencers are now legal.

I had one problem with the council in East Sussex that I won.
My land had a 'green lane' (unpaved track where vehicles could drive) on one edge, and there was an old barn there. I restored the barn so I could have my vehicles there, and created a graveled drive to the edge of the field. Did a gate.
Council wanted me to remove barn, ('unauthorized change of use of building) and remove the gate. Said I was not allowed to drive 'on the FOOTPATH' .
My lawyer could easily prove I had the right to do it. In the last letter I got the council people still added that despite my legal right, they still were of the OPINION I was wrong.