Knives/knife law.

[KenThis]

I'm not really assuming anything.

Also I think talking about prisons is not very helpful as that's a subset of society that have already shown themselves able to ignore laws.

I think two things have to be accepted.
Violent crime will always be with us no matter what laws are put into place.
(Even if all knives were banned someone would sharpen a spoon.)

If everyone was able to carry any fixed blade legally then there would be an increase in knife violence. (Some people who would otherwise not be able to, would be too easily provoked/tempted into pulling out their knife)

 

[mrcharly]

I feel that the current law is really pretty good. It allows a police officer to apprehend and confiscate when someone is carrying a sharpened object (rather than something explicitly a knife).
Very recent laws such as the 'anti zombie knife' law have been brought in not for the sake of enforcement on the street, but to stop the 'glamourisation' of knives as weapons. Again, I think that is a good thing.

There is a problem when a over-zealous officer demands to search someone who is going on a bushcamp, finds a 4" mora and decides to issue a caution or confiscate/charge. I get the strong feeling that this is more likely to happen to younger lads, and to people dressed maybe in a way that could be mistaken for someone being a bit of a 'walt' (and I say this as someone who owns some ex-army trousers and waterproofs; it's hardwearing, practical affordable stuff).

We don't need more laws. We need education. We need job opportunities (and affordable housing) for young people, so they don't get into a spiral of crime and 'gang life'.

 

[santaman2000]

I'm not really assuming anything.

Also I think talking about prisons is not very helpful as that's a subset of society that have already shown themselves able to ignore laws.......

......If everyone was able to carry any fixed blade legally then there would be an increase in knife violence. (Some people who would otherwise not be able to, would be too easily provoked/tempted into pulling out their knife)

Your final statement above contradicts your first. The final statement by its very wording assumes laws actually deter anybody.

The middle statement refers to what you call a "subset" that's already shown they're willing to ignore the laws. Actually inmates are just representative of the entire criminal population large in the public which is astronomically larger (after all, it IS criminals we're discussing and inmates the dumb ones that got caught)

 

[Janne]

You mention the 'anti Zombie' knives.
I recall several of my townie friends bought the 1970's equivalent, the Rambo knife.

One of my soldiers insisted of carrying one (made in Germany) instead of the issue Mora.
He could not even cut barbed wire with it.

I have always wondered why people waste money on those creations. Unusable for most things.
I have seen on the internet that there seems to be people buying copies of blades as featured in the Rings Trilogy and so on. usually with very fanciful names.

 

[Robson Valley]

You ain't played with nothing yet. Just wait until you get the chance to swing a Klingon bat'leth. So absurd, I was laughing.
Google for images of the spectrum of Klingon armament.

 

[Janne]

I know the one you mean. Seen on cinema!

I am sure there are internet communities loving these things. Discussing the different manufacturers, showing pics of splitting water melons, stuff like that!

 

[sunndog]

Hang on, hang on.... respect where its due, the batleth is second only to the tom brown tracker in terms of 'power'

 

[KenThis]

Santaman2000, I'm not going to get drawn into semantics. I've tried to explain my point twice and I think it stands.
Possibly there is just too great a difference between our points of view because of the cultural divide.
It might be simplistic but in the UK we can look at the prevalence of guns in USA and the number of gunshot fatalities/school shootings etc. and draw a very obvious conclusion. I think perhaps in the USA you are too close to the problem and maybe failing to see the wood for the trees.
It doesn't take a huge leap to make the case that something similar would be true for knives.

 

[KenThis]

As a huge Star Trek fan I love all of the Klingon weapons and as a collector of various things I can see the attraction of having a Battleth hanging on the wall.
I can also see the appeal to some in having a Rambo knife or a Sting from the Hobbit etc.
I'm not so sure about the smashing melons part though I have seen some youtube videos of a giant, fantasy sword maker in the US making such creations.

 

[Robson Valley]

I'm sure that the bat'leth fits very well into the choreography of the action scenes. It's a clanging Klingon dance.
Clearly a licenced producer for the top quality finish on the thing. It can stay on the wall.
But what can you do in reality? Spit half a dozen chickens for the fire comes to mind.

3/8" aluminum sheet, metal saw and a bunch of chalked up files for a rainy day DIY.
BTW the bat'leth and any number of other things are on sale at your average Sci-Fi convention.

 

[Laurentius]

I like knives, and swords as well and so does my brother. I have knives which have everyday use, my opinels, and SAKs, and I am known to my friends as someone who can be relied upon when there are bottles to be opened "or stones to be extracted from horses hooves"

Some of my knives are ornamental, that is to say either of antique and cultural interest or examples of craft work, they hang on my wall.

My sword is not particularly sharp, which is just as well, but I did take it to a public event last year, (with permission) to show it as a piece of craft work.

I don't like tacticool knives, zombie slayers, or the various kinds of cheap and nasty folders out there. Essentially I subscribe to the principals of William Morris, in that if you own a thing, it should either be usefull or beautifull.

There are two kinds of people who will carry knives, regardless of what the red top newspapers say. Those who do not care for the law because they know there are no cops around these days, and those like me who have good reason to carry (and only carry when we have)

I lament that it has come to this, but even in my youth there was this dichotomy. It was no sin to take a small penknife to school, and take it out in class to sharpen a pencil, it was no sin to carry a sheath knife on your belt when out in the country, but there were still the Teddy Boys and later "outlaws" with there flick knives ripping up the cinema seats.

 

[sunndog]

I do wonder why knife debates get around to justification of usefullness so often. I mean yes they are a tool at heart but i cant think of collectors of other items that get asked "what do you use it for" so often

To me a knife is THE primary tool of mankind. If we cant revel in the manifold varitaions of such a thing then what should we glory in?
Without the knife there would be very little else (how much has been made throughout our history without a cutting edge of some kind?)


OP, so you are asking would less knives mean less knife crime?.....Maybe a tiny bit less, people will find a way

Would more knives mean more knife crime? Yeah i would think so, people will also take the path of least resistance




If our bodies were held in temp controlled rooms with automated systems keeping us in peak physical condition and our 'lives' lived through virtual reality avatars we would all more than likely live longer........but i don't want that

 

[Laurentius]

[QUOTE="sunndog, post: 1850548, member: 41109"

To me a knife is THE primary tool of mankind./QUOTE]

I was thinking this very same thing earlier today as I was making myself a cheese sandwich. Just how would you set about that without a knife? Just how would you prepare your meals and eat them without a knife?

 

[sunndog]

[QUOTE="sunndog, post: 1850548, member: 41109"

To me a knife is THE primary tool of mankind./QUOTE]

I was thinking this very same thing earlier today as I was making myself a cheese sandwich. Just how would you set about that without a knife? Just how would you prepare your meals and eat them without a knife?

Think about all the things that need to be made to get yourself some cheese, butter, and bread....bladed articles should be what we pray to imo

 

[daveO]

Think about all the things that need to be made to get yourself some cheese, butter, and bread....bladed articles should be what we pray to imo

I actually think it's quite sad that life, for most people, has got to the stage where tool use is now restricted to food preparation. Mankind has got to this level of advancement specifically because we learned how to use tools and now we seem to be reaching a point of detachment from tools and the problem solving capabilities to use them effectively.

As you've said bladed tools are the most basic and the most useful of tools. Most weapons started life as tools and just happened to be effective for defense or attack. The cultural fear has now reached the stage that we would rather be unprepared for life than risk having to leave the house knowing people are lurking out there with their sharpened leathermans.

I imagine that the lawyer who is still patting himself on the back for getting locking folders classed as fixed blades was never allowed to use a SAK as a kid and never learned why the lock is an important invention. I know I still have scars on my fingers from that lesson. I imagine he gets a man in to fix things in his house while he goes off for a round of golf.

You can argue gun vs knife law but it's not the same thing. Knives are tools that are part of our evolution as a species in a way that guns never were. Knives will never go away as we will always use them even if it is just to eat.

 

[Janne]

My most scary knife is one of those kitchen knives where the serrated blade moves when you press a button.

I find serrated blades scary. I always remember when I cut myself on one. So much more painful than a sharp but smooth edge!

Off topic: it is not the number of guns in the US that correlates to the number of gun related crime. Europe except UK has also lots and lots of guns.
The difference is that in Europe we have a permit system, where the applicant is vetted.
In the US any nutcase can buy.

Back to topic: i do not expect blade related crime to drop in UK. I do not see why it should.

 

[daveO]

I've cut myself with a wood saw a few times. Serrations can really make a mess of you.

Your point about nutcases is very relevant though. Mental health problems are on the rise and that needs to be tackled more than restricting weapons/tools in my opinion. In some cases it is probably the best therapy to get people outdoors and using tools like knives to make things. Gardening therapy, craft or art therapy, maybe even bushcraft therapy. Show people just how strong and self reliant humans can be with the right tools and skills.

I also think knife crime rates should and will rise in the UK following the law changes but only because the laws are changing to allow the police greater powers to deal with knife related gang culture. The police can be fairly powerless to confiscate knifes from known or suspected criminals at the moment and I think that is what the news laws are aimed to sort out.

 

[santaman2000]

.....It might be simplistic but in the UK we can look at the prevalence of guns in USA and the number of gunshot fatalities/school shootings etc. and draw a very obvious conclusion. I think perhaps in the USA you are too close to the problem and maybe failing to see the wood for the trees.
It doesn't take a huge leap to make the case that something similar would be true for knives.

No, I see the problem easily enough, and yes, the same holds true for knives as well. See below for further elaboration.

......Off topic: it is not the number of guns in the US that correlates to the number of gun related crime. Europe except UK has also lots and lots of guns.
The difference is that in Europe we have a permit system, where the applicant is vetted.
In the US any nutcase can buy........

We've always had guns readily available for over 2 centuries. In the car, on the living room wall, bought over the counter at the local hardware store (or even by mail order from Sears & Roebuck back in the day) All without any real problem until violent crime began going up in 1960 until it reached a high point in 1994. The something amazing happened; gun sales started climbing exponentially and continued to climb until last year. Beginning at the same time (1994) violent crime (specifically, gun crime) started dropping until in 2014 it was at the lowest point it had ever been. However the gun crime starting in the 1990s and still going on is particularly dramatic; i.e. the school shootings or mass shootings with no apparent motives that draw headlines.

There are more restrictions now than there have ever been:
1) either be in possession of a Concealed Weapons Permit or suffer a 3 to 5 day wait before buying a handgun in EVERY state
2) no handgun purchase at all without a permit in some states
3) restrictions on where firearms can be carried
4) background checks before purchase (does not apply to private sale)
These are the most obvious restrictions but numerous more in varying states.

What's changed that makes more senseless crime (killing simply for the sake of killing) the current trend? It's not the gun itself (or knives in y'all's case) It's not licensing or lack of it. And no, it's not "mental health." It the steady decay of morality and the rising sense of entitlement. Every shooter so far has displayed that sense of entitlement in their stated reasons for their rampages (fired employees, failed students, racial bias when the shooter attacked the black church, etc.)

But as a society it's so much easier to blame the objects (guns or knives) and try to ban or restrict them. Or it's so much easier to blame "mental illness" and pass feel good laws about treatment and background checks (only 2 of the numerous shooters have had anything on their records that would have red lighted sales and 1 of those had nothing to do with mental health) Yeah; that lets us avoid the hard work rooting out the causes for moral decay and reversing it. It would mean we might have to stop the practice of giving every kid a spot on the teams whether he/she passes the try-outs or not. It might mean we stop giving little Johnny a trophy just for showing up to play even if his team loses every game. It might mean we have to start teaching our kids that life's not fair and they won't always get what they want. It might mean we have to start parenting again and raising kids that value human life and the rights of others rather than thinking they're the center of the universe. Naw, that'd all be too much work; lets just pass some more laws that won't work and pat each other's backs (giving each other that participation trophy like we give the kids)

 

[Janne]

Last might we saw two episodes of a new Swedish foodie serie, where we follow a couple of Same chefs, restaurant owners.
It is about how the trad Same cuisine.

In quite s few scenes you could see children of both sexes, age 7-12 or so, walking around with knives, learning to butcher reindeer, fish, cutting up meat before helping to cook.
Knives is a natural part of their lives, essential tools.

(Most of the knifes seen were nice too. The vast majority were of Same design, and I assume local manufacture. Several half horn knives.
Not one Mora in sight, not one Marttiini in sight! And all were well used.)

I think if those people heard about the proposed changes they would wonder what is wrong.

Sweden too has a ban on carrying blades unless you need it, btw.

 

[sunndog]

Last might we saw two episodes of a new Swedish foodie serie, where we follow a couple of Same chefs, restaurant owners.
It is about how the trad Same cuisine.

In quite s few scenes you could see children of both sexes, age 7-12 or so, walking around with knives, learning to butcher reindeer, fish, cutting up meat before helping to cook.
Knives is a natural part of their lives, essential tools.

(Most of the knifes seen were nice too. The vast majority were of Same design, and I assume local manufacture. Several half horn knives.
Not one Mora in sight, not one Marttiini in sight! And all were well used.)

I think if those people heard about the proposed changes they would wonder what is wrong.

Sweden too has a ban on carrying blades unless you need it, btw.

This is how i see knives, having been brought up in a similar manner. Knives are so integral to me its like asking if we banned hands would people get punched less

I honestly wonder how people can function without a knife on their person....if i don't have a knife i cant go more than a few hours on the average before i give up and go get one