Knives in schools.

[Tiley]

that ... does NOT change the actual real world legal position that they are allowed, whether pupils are present or not, given the proper circumstances of reason and need.

It seems, then, that I will be allowed to continue my extracurricular bushcraft activity. Although the law is necessarily strict, it does seem to recognise the use of knives for 'educational purposes' on school premises. Since the Moras are locked away whilst not in use and only ever get used under my strict supervision, it seems that I should be O.K. legally despite some of the worrying absolutism expressed. Still, it is always useful to be reminded of the minefield that surrounds the whole subject of knives.

 

[nigeltm]

Am I being daft or are there two very simple levels/aspects to this argument?

Legal:
Sect 139A of the CJA88 allows the carry of ANY bladed or pointed article (with the exception of specific types defined by the Off Weap Act, e.g. flick knives & concealed knives) on school premises if there is good reason. Some specific good reasons are defined in the subsections (i.e. work, education, religious or national costume). Any other good reason is at the discretion of the courts if it is put before them as a result of an arrest/charge under the CJA88. So if you carry a knife on school premises you should either meet one of the defined good reasons or be confident enough that you can satisfy a court that you have a good reason.

H&S/local policy:
Sect139A, or any other legislation, does not define HOW the article is to be carried or managed when on the school premises. That is down to the policies defined by the headmaster/governers/LEA. In Tiley's case the head is happy for the knives to be stored in a locked cupboard and their use monitored by a responsible person. In Robbi's case he recommends that each knife is identified, signed out/in and their issue/use tracked. Both approaches are perfectly fine if they are the policy agreed upon by those in control and with esponsibility for the school.

While the posters on this thread may have differing opinions on the HOW bladed and pointed articles are managed on the premises, the simple fact is that the legislation does allow it with good reason. One issue is that there are many possible good reasons but they are subjective and often influenced by personal opinion and media hysteria. Also, seemingly exessive controls may be in place due to the fear of compensation litigation should there be an injury or incident involving an article allowed on the premises. Showing that all "reasonable" (there's that word again!) steps have been taken to control access to an article on the premises protects the school/governors/LEA in the case of litigation.

Have I got this right or should I go back to bed and hide under the covers?

 

[steve75]

Wow got a lot of feedback on this one.Most of the time our work is carried out during holidays or when school is finished for The day. I am usually sent to assist one of the main fitters ( my main job is manufacturing ). A typical job during term time would be simple maintaining existing blinds. Eg fitting new stabilizing chain and bottom weights to vertical blinds or replacing a faulty rail. The SAK is very usefull on these jobs. Scissors for cutting chain small blade for cutting film wrap on rails or opening boxes of weights and screwdriver for tightening screws on brackets. I find it inconvenient to carry toolbox from class to class when i have all the tools i need in me SAK. I have been doing this for years without problems even used it in head teachers office. One of the lads i work with has been carrying a small lock knife with him I have explained it is illegal to carry it after reading posts on here. As for my carrying my SAK I now feel i am legally allowed to do so but may fall foul of individual scools health and safety policies.

 

[Tristar777]

Hi. Its simple. In the school the Head teacher is god! Check if He/She will allow it and any restrictions. It doesnt matter what the law says, He will tell you what he is happy with you doing and how.

 

[bigroomboy]

This is yet another example of the catalytic hysteria that causes all of these problems.

The law in this country may be strict but it is rarely ridiculous where it affects daily life. The law in terms of tools that may be dangerous is left vague to allow for sensible interpretation to allow people to use tools when there is or may be a need.

Saying a tradesman cannot carry a tool such as a leatherman for a job that only requires screwing a light fitting is ridiculous because that tradesman cannot foresee what jobs he will be doing for the rest of the day / week or repack his bag for every little job. The job may also change when he gets there, what is he to do? Return home for the correct tools? Presumably they can not be in his van as that would most likely be parked on school property, infact parked anywhere other than private land he would be committing an offence according to some in this tread.

If a tradesman or any other person uses a tool such as a knife often in the course of their work or other activity they are doing then they would be perfectly OK having it with them in their tool bag or person.

Also it is not within the law or people on here to tell a person how they should do their job, yes you can cut with scissors, it may be impractical, but somebody may just prefer to cut with a knife and if that choice would be deemed reasonable by learned people then there is no problem with that. Scissors are nothing more than two knives and a pivot point, what makes them so much safer? as a pointed bladed tool they fall within the exact same guide lines, it is only the image that people have painted of knives and scissors that sets them apart.

Additionally as British Red posted near the start, folding pocket knives under 3 inches are exempt which should have ended this thread there and then, in fact I would have to do some research around those sections but it appears to suggest a student is still OK to have a pocket knife like the good old days, meaning nothing has changes but peoples opinions causing all the modern restrictions we perceive and therefore impose on ourselves and others, and thus the tightening cycle continues.

We should all try to avoid turning popular opinion or hearsay into fact and passing it on as it only makes the problem worse

Stepping off the soap box..

 

[Redwall]

Additionally as British Red posted near the start, folding pocket knives under 3 inches are exempt which should have ended this thread there and then.

As much as I hate to wade into an argument (Ha, I love it) I think this sentence pretty much clears it up. School policy may vary but the letter of the law says UNDER 3 AND FOLDING IS A-OK.

Let's take a little bit of section 139a (we don't need much):
"(1) Any person who has an article to which section 139 of this Act applies with him on school premises shall be guilty of an offence"
In layman's terms: If it's covered be 139, it's included in 139a

Now we check what is included in 139:
"(2) Subject to subsection (3) below, this section [139] applies to any article which has a blade of is sharply pointed except a folding pocketknife.
(3) This section applies to a folding pocketknife if the cutting edge of its blade exceeds 3 inches."
Put simply, a folding pocketknife with a cutting edge of under 3 inches is NOT included in section 139 and therefore is NOT included in 139a.
As we know from case law it can be taken as writ that "folding" implies non-locking.

Getting all Nanny state about knives does not keep us safer. Demonstrating that knives can be used by adults in a safe and sensible fashion is a much more viable route. This also serves to diminish some of the contraband factor of knives. That's my little soapboxing.

Should also add, I assume in this case we are talking about a sub 3-inch non locking SAK as is most common. Beyond that the law with regard to "good reason" becomes more hazy. Also common sense is still a useful tool even when operating inside the letter of the law.

 

[Jared]

Haven't read this thread entirely...

But if you have a valid reason for having a knife, then it's legal.
That there maybe other tools that could be used instead of a knife is completely irrelevant.

Otherwise it'd get into nonsense like why have a 4" knife, when a 3" knife would work just as well.

 

[wattsy]

it should also be pointed out that it isn't illegal to have any knife anywhere (unless it's banned under the Offensive Weapons Act) if you have good reason to have it, which is why my sister, who is training to be a chef at college, is allowed to carry her knife set in and out everyday (she'd leave them but they are valuable), why I carry an Opinel No.6 to and from my allotment, and why we can carry a knife to and from trips out to the woods etc. In all these examples the knife owner has good reason, although discretion should also be used, you can't just walk through town swinging a knife around they are better off in bags or pockets

 

[nic.]

I expect to hear knee jerk, 'no knives, ever' reactions from time to time. But when they come from someone that presumably likes bushcraft and the associated kit, and is in a position of authority I find it doubly depressing.

 

[Soundmixer]

I normally don't get involved in this sort of discussion but I feel that I may have to share some experiences.
I have done a lot of work in schools and universities. I work in the audio visual business and knives and sharp things are used daily. I recently worked in a private school in Aberdeen and the staff made damn sure that the area being work in was pupil free in case any of the little darlings got light fingered or decided to stand under the ladder when heavy things were being installed. Basically the staff trusted the little angels as far as they could throw them (pretty far apparently!)

I used to work in a university and carrying a knife was never an issue. One of the techs carried a Leatherman on his belt openly and never had a problem. It was always a case of "well they are AV so they need tools" and nobody batted an eye.

I think the rules on keeping the little darlings safe are more about not giving them the temptation to go wild. The schools probably don't care what tradesmen bring in as long as little Johnny can't get to it and start stabbing little Jenny. If he does then the school now has a way out by saying that the skilled, stable tradesman was wrong to bring a weapon of mass destruction on to the premises.

Now if you think schools are bad, try taking a SAK offshore. The North Sea oil sector has a strict no knives policy that makes schools look soft. One hundred men on an oil rig with knives, and not safe in using them, will lead to disaster. Never mind the big , blunt heavy tools that can bash heads in or screwdrivers that slip between ribs, you are NOT taking that SAK classic on this rig.

The short of it is, keep your SAK in your pocket when it's not being used. At university I could whip it out, cut whatever needed cutting and put it away again faster than the Waco Kid, but in a way that didn't draw attention. Never leave any of your tools lying around for school kids to play with. I have an 8" plasterboard saw that is way more dangerous than a knife as the wound doesn't seal. (I've seen it happen)
If they can't get to them they can't do harm.

 

[santaman2000]

.....Now if you think schools are bad, try taking a SAK offshore. The North Sea oil sector has a strict no knives policy that makes schools look soft. One hundred men on an oil rig with knives, and not safe in using them, will lead to disaster. Never mind the big , blunt heavy tools that can bash heads in or screwdrivers that slip between ribs, you are NOT taking that SAK classic on this rig......

LOL. If they tried that on the rigs in the Gulf of Mexico no one would bother to even apply for the jobs.

But if you really want to see somewhere knives are a no no, try visiting a prison. I'm not being trite here. I really mean try visiting even as a workman. Yes you do indeed have to take just exacttly what you need to do each individual task. And IF you need something else, you do have to pack everything up, take it back to the truck, and replace it with the next tool. Ladders and ropes are considered class one escape tools.

Wanna know the ironic part? Inmate workers are allowed to use knives, chainsaws and whatever they need if their job requires it. It's a cumbersome system but it does work

 

[HillBill]

Deleted..... points covered already in the thread

nope, not ever i'm afraid.......no knives ever allowed in schools at any time for any reason whilst pupils are on the premises.

 

[FGYT]

Points have already been covered

My 3 yr old can legally buy a sub 3" folding knife

Can legally carry it any were including school

No law is broken by anybody

anything else needs good reason (ie a sharply pointed Pencil which has no exemption under S139 but you can at least carry a pen knife ot sharpen a blunt one when you do find a use)


HOWEVER school rules/policy may say no

British Law and School rules are different things ie a headmaster may ask or tell you to not bring a blade into school but they cant get the police involved for just having one

Ive never seen the point of the extra S139 for schools its exactly the same as the general one just adds for educational use to the named good reasons all else is the same

 

[steve75]

Some good input there soundmixer. Keeping your tools out of reach of pupils is always priority when working in a school. Thats a reason i like my SAK as its the most common tools i would use on a routine maintainence job in one. Less chance of putting it down and one of the little darling getting their hands on it. I know what you mean about the drywall saw lethal in the wrong hands.

 

[redbranchwarrior]

Ive never seen the point of the extra S139 for schools its exactly the same as the general one just adds for educational use to the named good reasons all else is the same

A school is not a 'public place' within the law, so was not covered by the original legislation.....

 

[demographic]

I've just been working in a primary school today and I always carry a Stanley knife in my nail pouch, I also carry a 24 ounce framing hammer, a 300mm long nail bar, few pencils, small adjustable spanner, end cutting nippers, tape measure, and a nail punch.

I don't really rate normal penknives for use during work as I often cut DPC which by its very nature is against brickwork or concrete, I just can't be trashed with having to sharpen them after every bit of DPC I cut, or after cutting plasterboard its far simpler to just bin the blunted blade.

 

[FGYT]

A school is not a 'public place' within the law, so was not covered by the original legislation.....

fair enough so they added to include schools in the existing restrictions not to add more restrictions to schools than any where else

 

[redbranchwarrior]

fair enough so they added to include schools in the existing restrictions not to add more restrictions to schools than any where else

Absolutely, under the original legislation there would have been no offence within the school, hence the change and related exemptions (caretakers etc....)

 

[mrcharly]

nope, not ever i'm afraid.......no knives ever allowed in schools at any time for any reason whilst pupils are on the premises.

Nonsense

Well, in England anyway.

If it is a tool carried for use in context of the school or maintenance work - of course it is legal.

 

[mrcharly]

Some good input there soundmixer. Keeping your tools out of reach of pupils is always priority when working in a school. Thats a reason i like my SAK as its the most common tools i would use on a routine maintainence job in one. Less chance of putting it down and one of the little darling getting their hands on it. I know what you mean about the drywall saw lethal in the wrong hands.

And that is a very good justification for using a SAK in a school, rather than an open-topped toolbag with hammer, screwdriver, pliers, stanley knife, etc.