Criminal Justice Act 1988 section 139A
S. 139 defines these articles as
Thats the law on knives in schools
Knives in schools.
- Thread starter steve75
- Start date
-
Hey Guest, Early bird pricing on the Summer Moot (29th July - 10th August) available until April 6th, we'd love you to come. PLEASE CLICK HERE to early bird price and get more information.
Criminal Justice Act 1988 section 139A
S. 139 defines these articles as
Thats the law on knives in schools
I am afraid that you are not correct in your absolutism , in both England and Scotland there are separate pieces of legislation creating the offence of having a knife or bladed implement in school - the Offensive Weapons Act 1996 and the Criminal Justice Act 1988 in England and the Criminal Law (Consolidation) (Scotland) Act 1995 in Scotland - but both provide the defence that
(Eng) (3) It shall be a defence for a person charged with an offence under subsection (1) or (2) above to prove that he had good reason or lawful authority for having the article or weapon with him on the premises in question
(Sco) (3)It shall be a defence for a person charged with an offence under subsection (1) or (2) above to [F2show that the person had a reasonable excuse] or lawful authority for having the article or weapon with him on the premises in question.
The OP in requiring the knife as a tool to carry out his employment would have good reason or reasonable excuse and can also simply explain to the school authorities that he requires it to carry out his work and avoid the hysteria of the absolute
i will try and find the guidance / seperate legislation notes tomorrow for you, might take a while, the legal eagles are notoriously slow ! But I / we have always been led to believe that it's a complete no no.
There may well be something that allows supervised activities such as yours ( you may need to store the knives off site ), i'll check, but i do know for a fact that NO ONE can enter a school carrying a knife. ( i have a little single blade SAK that i have to leave in the car ! )
resnikov
Bushcrafter (boy, I've got a lot to say!)
Whoops, went to my school governor's meeting straight from work with my SAK in my pocket.
Sent from my GT-I9000 using Tapatalk 2
Sent from my GT-I9000 using Tapatalk 2
I am afraid that you are not correct in your absolutism , in both England and Scotland there are separate pieces of legislation creating the offence of having a knife or bladed implement in school - the Offensive Weapons Act 1996 and the Criminal Justice Act 1988 in England and the Criminal Law (Consolidation) (Scotland) Act 1995 in Scotland - but both provide the defence that
(Eng) (3) It shall be a defence for a person charged with an offence under subsection (1) or (2) above to prove that he had good reason or lawful authority for having the article or weapon with him on the premises in question
(Sco) (3)It shall be a defence for a person charged with an offence under subsection (1) or (2) above to [F2show that the person had a reasonable excuse] or lawful authority for having the article or weapon with him on the premises in question.
The OP in requiring the knife as a tool to carry out his employment would have good reason or reasonable excuse and can also simply explain to the school authorities that he requires it to carry out his work and avoid the hysteria of the absolute
and again i ask what is good reason to carry a knife when there are pupils on the premises ? a tradesman who "may" need to use a knife will be doing his work after hours or at weekends, ( but even so, name me a tradesman that NEEDS a knife to do his job in a school ) a caretaker / cleaner / teacher can use scissors
lets try this........a handyman goes to a school to fix a leaking tap, whilst in the classroom the teacher asks him to change a fuse in a plug, helpful handyman gets out his trusty SAK to use the screwdriver, puts it down for 2 second and one of the little darlings swipes it ( and they do steal things ! ) he then proceeds to A) cut himself badly with the blade or B) cut someone else.......so what is the handymans defence ( good reason ) to take a knife into a school ? he needed the knife as it had a screwdriver in it ? no ! he should have had the correct tool, a screwdriver.
Use a multi tool with pliers ? nope, it has a blade.......use proper pliers.
there is no excuse / defence / good reason
Robbie, schools do tend to carry out major works over holiday periods where possible but other stuff is always ongoing but the school will not want to pay the premium contractors would charge for weekend or out of hours working, this will often lead to trades working while kids are on site. if for instance a classroom was been refurbished, a dry liner will cut plaster with a knife and a carpet fitted would also need a blade. I dont know how the law applies to colleges, but i guess its similar and ive worked on projects where new buildings are going up next to old ones with kids on site.
what if the hired professional was also a ninja..?
he'd have to be lightweight so he could sneak in and out without being seen (who want's to see a sweaty builder fixing plugs?) and couldn't carry/wear a tool belt or toolbox, but had to have a certain ammount of tools to complete his contract?
"fix the plug in the art block, Darrel san!..and maybe that manky bit of carpet that the fat kid puked on.."
So he has a choice, take a screw driver to do the plug job and nothing else. But be left inable to complete his job when he needs to snip wires.. but cannot take just pliers as he needs the screw driver. Take a multi tool with pliers and a screw driver? but it has a blade.. so surely he cannot carry it as it won't be needed or a good enough reason? Wait! the puked on carpet, he will need to cut that piece up to fit a new section!
So, three jobs, all seemingly simple yet all need a specific tool, luckily for the Darrel the ninja, he has his leatherman! Darrel now beleives his trusty leatherman is a very capable tool for such a light weight packing ninja/handy man, but what if the next job doesn't specifically need the blade tool?
*darrle shoots himself because it's pointless to question and worry about something so easily remedied with common sense.*
um.. I'll get my coat.
he'd have to be lightweight so he could sneak in and out without being seen (who want's to see a sweaty builder fixing plugs?) and couldn't carry/wear a tool belt or toolbox, but had to have a certain ammount of tools to complete his contract?
"fix the plug in the art block, Darrel san!..and maybe that manky bit of carpet that the fat kid puked on.."
So he has a choice, take a screw driver to do the plug job and nothing else. But be left inable to complete his job when he needs to snip wires.. but cannot take just pliers as he needs the screw driver. Take a multi tool with pliers and a screw driver? but it has a blade.. so surely he cannot carry it as it won't be needed or a good enough reason? Wait! the puked on carpet, he will need to cut that piece up to fit a new section!
So, three jobs, all seemingly simple yet all need a specific tool, luckily for the Darrel the ninja, he has his leatherman! Darrel now beleives his trusty leatherman is a very capable tool for such a light weight packing ninja/handy man, but what if the next job doesn't specifically need the blade tool?
*darrle shoots himself because it's pointless to question and worry about something so easily remedied with common sense.*
um.. I'll get my coat.
I'm afraid that is simple minded nonsense. I can name any number of trades that require blades but let's start with a single one - a carpet fitter. You expect him to use scissors, those little ones with the kiddy sized finger holes and the rounded tips perhaps? If the parents and school staff cannot control their children and pupils to the extent that they are stealing from anyone entering the school then the victim of the theft does not require a defence, the thieving little git does. And if you , given your stated position , call the police to report the "crime" you believe is being committed because you see a tradesman with a knife, what are you going to do when the police who attend have knives on their belts - because they all do - refuse them entry?
Most schools etc works are carried out under a STC ( Service Term Contract ) that is on fixed rates, there is no premium for overtime or weekend working, the Education and Library Board as the main body pay for all ongoing maintenance and capital works, the schools only pay if the works are a direct result of vandalism or they "want" something rather than "need" something.
Where classrooms are being refurb'd for example, this will be done during holidays or at weekends with the area closed down during school time, principle do not want disruption to the school and the wrath of the parents etc, so no pupils are on site during works.
thats taking it a bit far mate, if you read my posts you will see i say on numerous occassions........"when there are pupils in the school" all works that will require disruption, carpet fitting, classroom refurbs etc. are done during holiday periods or at weekends ( see above post ) when there are no pupils on site.
im guessing that applies to schools constructed under the private finance initiative with inclusive maintenance for the length of the leaseback but not all schools are sorted yet. Anyhow if im wrong i stand corrected re rates as my area is further education and contractors batter my clients for ooh working. it doesnt change the fact that the law permits it. My daughters school just had new mobile classrooms installed and workmen were onsite when the kids were there.
no, i work for an education and library board, we don't get involved with PFI work thank goodness, all our works are carried out under a STC contract and have been for a couple of years now, it has pushed the rates down and put a number of smaller contractors out of business but the bean counters have decreed that this is the way forward and we have to run with it, like it or not i'm afraid.
Paul, the area where the mobile classroom was installed would have been fenced off and secure with no pupils allowed access. ( basic H & S stuff mate. )
@ Robbi - you are correct, I was being too much the argumentative lawyer there, probably better to have phrased it that you were being too simplistic and that your last statement " there is no excuse / defence / good reason" is simply wrong, the law, as explained, allows each of these things. If you believe that knives should never be in schools when there are pupils there, that is your right, but that in itself does NOT change the actual real world legal position that they are allowed, whether pupils are present or not, given the proper circumstances of reason and need.
@ Brambles
in my job, i have to take the safe line, the possible consequences don't bare thinking about. ( loss of job, prison, fine etc )
bearing in mind that i've already pointed out that any works that involve disruption are carried out during holidays etc, ( no pupils on site ) for general day to day maintenance that all schools need, there really is no "good reason" to carry a knife
i have to cover not only myself but my contractors as well.
an electrician uses a knife to strip the covering off cables,.....why, there is a tool for that
a plumber uses a knife to open a box........why, does he really need a knife to open a box ?
a tiler uses a knife to cut his edge trim....why, side cutters do that
the whole worlds gone mad but i not only have a duty OF care but i also have a duty TO care.
So, once again, there really is no excuse / defence / good reason to take a knife into a school when there are pupils on the premises.
I admitt, i do look at things in the simplistic light it makes things much easier i find ....no knife in school = no possible problem.....simple
stay safe mate
in my job, i have to take the safe line, the possible consequences don't bare thinking about. ( loss of job, prison, fine etc )
bearing in mind that i've already pointed out that any works that involve disruption are carried out during holidays etc, ( no pupils on site ) for general day to day maintenance that all schools need, there really is no "good reason" to carry a knife
i have to cover not only myself but my contractors as well.
an electrician uses a knife to strip the covering off cables,.....why, there is a tool for that
a plumber uses a knife to open a box........why, does he really need a knife to open a box ?
a tiler uses a knife to cut his edge trim....why, side cutters do that
the whole worlds gone mad but i not only have a duty OF care but i also have a duty TO care.
So, once again, there really is no excuse / defence / good reason to take a knife into a school when there are pupils on the premises.
I admitt, i do look at things in the simplistic light
it makes things much easier i find ....no knife in school = no possible problem.....simple stay safe mate
Last edited:
Save maybe the ones referenced in BR's post #21; Section 4 (b), (c), and (d)
The most realistic being (b) educational purposes. As someone already said, they're teaching a bushcraft class. And possibly some type of knives (or maybe other sharps) in a shop class, culinary class, etc.
The law itself doesn't seem that unreasonable or vastly different to the laws here. The problems usually arise whenever common sense is required. There seems to be a shortage of that on both sides; those who are determined to find a reason to carry rheir knife (real or imagined) and those who woild ban them outright.
Last edited:
Hi. My onderstanding would be to simply ask the Head teacherif he/she is happy with you carrying the knife on your belt or would they prefer in your tool box. You require it as a tool for your job and it is leagal in size specs etc. Usually this isnt a problem, just being sensitive to the preferences of the school rules.
Having said that the school can refuse anyone entry for any reason they choose if you dont follow thier preference whether you have a legal blade or not! This would cause them problems getting jobs done but thats their right. I cannot see them being a problem unless you make it one !
Having said that the school can refuse anyone entry for any reason they choose if you dont follow thier preference whether you have a legal blade or not! This would cause them problems getting jobs done but thats their right. I cannot see them being a problem unless you make it one !
According to the quoted legislation even a pupil at a school is perfectly legal in bringing in his legal folder for a class show and tell. As are reenactors etc etc, school children do like to see daggers and swords. I would maintain that this is one of the ways of demystifying knives along with bushcraft activities.
Wrong, wrong, wrong!
School canteen: knives on the table along with the spoons and forks.
Art class: stanley knives, scalpels, X-Acto knives, etc.
Woodwork class: chisels, gouges, carving knives, marking knives, etc.
Biology (or Life Sciences, whatever it's called nowadays): scalpels, etc.
So there are already plenty of "sharp and pointy objects" in schools.
Relevant section of the law:
In my opinion, it is quite clear that the OP can carry a SAK in his pocket while visiting the school to carry out work, if that SAK is part of his "tools of the trade" with no legal problems at all.
On the other hand, if he is careless and it gets into the hands of a pupil who is found in possession of it, it becomes a different matter altogether, and the head will certainly want to take steps to reduce the risk of that happening.
Pupils should not, in any case, have access to areas of the school where repairs are being carried out, and workers might be required to carry their tools off-premises to their van, or lock their tools in a storeroom, whenever they (the workers) are absent (i.e., overnight or during meal breaks).
Last edited:
Similar threads
