knife laws explained by a barrister

[gra_farmer]

I on the other hand think that it is responsible people (particularly men as role models) not carrying knives that is part of the problem we now have. I find it quite depressing when people almost boast that they don't need a knife so don't carry one. In my experience, tools, including knives, are something that one learns to do without if you do not have them. Using this as a justification why no one really needs the thing is an approach that could be applied to an awful lot of things that many people would miss. Need is a terrible yard stick when it comes to giving up freedom.

If knives were seen as every day tools, boring items with about as much status a set of house keys, then they would be less attractive to the youngsters wanting to carry to gain instant "respect". I remember as a teen at school, a peer learned I owned/carried a pocket knife and wanted to show me his "knife". Brought it to school. It was some hideously low quality stilleto-look-alike. I distinctly recall I was hugely unimpressed, it was a useless shape, dull edge, wobbly pivot, and altogether impractical. I had owned and carried a SAK and assorted pocket knives, locking and not, for about six years at the time.

I am not advocating that people, now, carry locking knives or sheath knives just incase they are useful, but I am advocating that responsible people do not leave the field entirely, that they carry sub-3" non-lockers every chance they get. That they take the opportunity to show friends and colleagues that knives can be useful, and not these scary things only used to commit crime.

I have carried and used knives everyday since I was 5 years old. I am quite European in the fact that I use my knife to eat my lunch as well as other tasks.

I work primarily in a office most days, but my tool of choice is a leatherman, and rotate the different models. No one is shocked or concerned, or even cares, most people often buy a leatherman or SAK after seeing me use my knife/multi tools.

Now I have friends in the police, one of which is the lead for the anti terrorism team in Kent. I have talked to all my police friends, and if the person is polite (and the knife is not something stupid), and they have a knife on them, they are very unlikely to do anything.

Now it is an age and the way you look thing, I have been stopped 3 times by police when I was younger. Every time I had a knife on me, and every time I had a reason and nothing happened.

The more interesting time was when I was coming back from university, they didn't care about the Leatherman tool, it was the dissection kit, mounted needles and the scalpels...but again there was a reason and they were quite interested in the lesson I did, I was there for 15 minutes explaining the lesson and what was done...2 weeks later one of the policemen I spoke to was at the university wanting to see if he could sit in on a lesson.

 

[neoaliphant]

I remember when I was 7, the swiss army knife cloens made by millets came out, all my friends had one, we took them to school, showed to teachers, we all thought how cool all of the tools, no teachers batetred an eye lid.
8 years later when I was fifteen a 7 year old tried to mug with a SAK, im afraid i burst out laughing and he was doing it in front of shops with grannies around and I just walked away...

ive seen that people have been arrested for carrying a screwdriver in dodgy situation, at night in urban setting, having a very large screwdriver in pocket is a bit odd,

A law abiding citizen not carryong a SAK, or even a locker, does not make the world safer, if I lived in the US, i would have a gun, and it wouldnt be any gun control issue, because I wouldnt be commiting a crime....

 

[neoaliphant]

one time i got piulled over on my bike by police because my sword didnt have a scabbard, and he suggested i put it in a bin liner just so other people woulndt see it, and off i rode...daytime on way to battle practice, all down to context.

 

[neoaliphant]

Im never going to put my fingers in peril with a non locking just because of the law, im using a knfe legitimately, usually for work, and the lock protects me, but then im not taking out to pubs/nightclubs....

 

[Kiri]

Yes, parliaments intention was that lock knives would be included in the s139 exemption. Sadly it was poorly worded in the legislation and the Court of Appeal upheld a lower court’s decision that with the current wording lock knives were not covered.

 

[Harold Godwinson]

Interesting thread. I've just been reading it.

Knife law is a funny old thing and hopefully none of us will ever full foul of it.

But I've had two experiences of being stopped with a knife and both have been positive.

Many many moons ago whilst serving I tried to fly out of Aldergrove Airport with a Leatherman tool on my belt. Completely forgot I had it as I carried one as a EDC, the RUC guy on security there was really cool about it and just told me to stick it in my hold luggage no problem at all.

These days I carry a SAK Camper and a Opinel no8 every day, I use them both at work and when I go overnighting they are my cutting tools also, along with a SF shovel. I don't carry a sheath knife or a axe as I don't need one. I can do everything I need to with the pocket tools, the SAK is UK legal but the Opinel with its lock clearly is not but also it's not a tactical looking tool and I have only been stopped once by the police (who were shopping in Tesco) while I was, and noticed them on my belt. Interesting the police man who spoke to me asked me what they were, I told him and he asked to see the Opinel, which I did thinking I was in trouble. Once I showed him the tool he was more interested in the fact I had carved and pyrographed the handle into a copy of a Lewe chess piece than the legality of the tool. It clearly helped that I was in my work clothes (I'm a gardener) and that I live in a rural area and not a urban sprawl.

The point being that, as mentioned above, the interpretation of the law and the situation are both critical to the end result as well as the experience of the carrier and more so the police officer.

 

[Toddy]

There's a bit missing; it crucially depends on the area you are in.

Where I live is a nice peaceful village (well, it was a village, those of us who are native still call it the village, but it's become a dormitory suburb these days ) but the next town, was for several years literally known as the murder capital of Scotland.

New figures reveal South Lanarkshire is 'murder capital' of Scotland

THE number of murders and culpable homicides in the police force area that covers Hamilton, Blantyre and Larkhall has rocketed by a staggering 366 PER CENT in the past year.

www.dailyrecord.co.uk

More knife killings in Hamilton than in any of the cities here.
The local MP's actually did the hustings with posters up saying, "Carry a knife; go to Jail".

It was not a fun time to be someone who uses knives as tools. Hamilton is no longer the 'murder capital', I think it's Dundee nowadays, poor blighters, but the opprobium stands.

Part of what I did was demonstrating and explaining traditional handcrafts to the public.
A knife in a woman's hand is not usually a threatening thing, not when it's been used to do something like peel bark, make feathersticks, brushes, etc., but I still got hassled at times.
The Police came by to see what we were doing, and they weren't best pleased but legally I was in the right. I had a reasonable reason to have and to use the knives.

That said, the only knife that I ever thought I couldn't use in public again was a spyderco.
I was working in a country park in Glasgow and a boy saw me using the knife and said, "Is that a guid chib ?"
That translates as, a good as in really good,
Scot slang / verb chibs, chibbing or chibbed. (tr) to stab or slash with a sharp weapon. noun. a sharp weapon, such as a knife or razor.

The spyderco is just a tad too tactical looking methinks, much though I like the knives, I can't use them in public, or carry them where they'll be seen.

Sometimes, even being legally right, doesn't make it the right thing to do

There's another thing to bear in mind. If you do get in trouble with the police over a knife, and you are offered a caution, be aware that can be a permanent thing on your record. It's not supposed to be, I think it's six years, but the reality is that it's on your computerised record.
Cautions can show on standard and enhanced Disclosure and Barring Service (DBS) checks.
Part of my work was with children and I have to be cleared and certificated that I am 'criminal' record free, to work with children.
A caution screws up your record.

 

[Harold Godwinson]

Doesn't the law say - judged by your peers?

Maybe knife cases should be judged by crafts people who depend on such tools. Gun cases only by people who use guns, although I'd hate to decide who judges a drunk driver!

 

[Ystranc]

Doesn't the law say - judged by your peers?

Maybe knife cases should be judged by crafts people who depend on such tools. Gun cases only by people who use guns, although I'd hate to decide who judges a drunk driver!

Unfortunately you are more likely to be judged by a group of people that have been raised on a diet of ”all knives are bad.” I struggle to think of most British people as my peers nowadays, I just don’t understand what motivates them and they certainly don’t get me.
The anti gun lobby don’t even need to go to court to get us, public consultations after public consultations are chipping away at firearms ownership bit by bit...don’t get me started on that one.

 

[Laurentius]

There was an article in the Guardian the other day where a coroner had written to some general in the army saying that retired squaddies should not be issued with "ceremonial daggers" because one of them had used one to commit murder, never mind he probably had several equally lethal knives in his kitchen. She would have a blue fit if she saw what is hanging on my living room wall.

 

[Toddy]

Son1 and his GF were visiting; GF is into the foraging and they were asking for advice on a suitable knife.
So, I hauled out the shinies box ....
Not the axe, saw or 'big knives'/machete box, just the knives.
Cue squawking from Son1 that really this is a tad overkill.
Well yes, maybe, but I don't have drawer queens, I have used all of them. They're all good tools.
Anyhow GFSon1's away with one

Just now the knife at hand is my trusty Helle Polar

M

 

[Ystranc]

Son1 and his GF were visiting; GF is into the foraging and they were asking for advice on a suitable knife.
So, I hauled out the shinies box ....
Not the axe, saw or 'big knives'/machete box, just the knives.
Cue squawking from Son1 that really this is a tad overkill.
Well yes, maybe, but I don't have drawer queens, I have used all of them. They're all good tools.
Anyhow GFSon1's away with one

Just now the knife at hand is my trusty Helle Polar

M

I really like the Opinel hawk billed knife for foraging.

 

[Toddy]

I really like the Opinel hawk billed knife for foraging.

We have one of the mushroom ones but to be honest I find it really uncomfortable in the hand.

I do like the little sickle that Jojo made for me though. I have yet to find a better tool for gathering around the bushes and hedgerows.

 

[TeeDee]

Worth a watch

 

[Pattree]

We have one of the mushroom ones [Opinel] but to be honest I find it really uncomfortable in the hand.

Then make yourself a handle that’s comfortable. I really MUST pay my subs so I can illustrate.

What follows is not a political post. It’s about political mechanism.

UK is not a democracy, it appoints its politicians using a system of Majority Rule. This allows 51% of those who vote, to oppress the other 49%. I’m not complaining, it’s what we’ve got and it has advantages.
One disadvantage is that, in order to stay in power as a politician or a political appointee one has to speak to the 51% .

Some twenty years ago a Chief Constable appeared on a news broadcast with what he called a butterfly knife. He held it up by the loop closure using a pen at arms length as if the knife were toxic. He was part of a lobby to make ownership (as opposed to carrying) of these knives illegal. Legislation was passed shortly afterwards.
As a result my unlovely but very practical and bombproof Normark Hunting knife could now be part of the Knife Angel.

It’s the system. My redress is my MP but as one who might wish to carry a knife I would be talking to someone who represents a frightened majority. (I’m content not to carry one.)

None of this is logical when you look at a supermarket hardware section or at the range of tools that aren’t called knives. It’s not logical, it’s just one small effect of a system which, while a poor representation of freedom, is better than many alternatives.

 

[Jared]

Watched ThatGearGuy's video last week, and kept thinking of threads on old BB discussing the same issues. Just surprised he only just found out.

 

[Crac]

TLDR:

Video 1, Title: “Police came to my house! UK Knife Law update 2023…”

ThatGearGuy has a flipper knife seized by border force. The seizure means more paperwork and the crime number recording the action. Furthermore the notice of this incident/crime is passed to the firearm enforcement officer.

The first important issue raised by ThatGearGuy is: Our knife laws have been amended but the detail of the law hasn’t been tried in court. Any folding knife which can be opened quickly by one hand seems the target for the new laws…
But this depends on high tight the pivot is and the legal side looks very muddy. One option is the submit the knife (Or rather a single model) to a court for a ruling, at your own expense... (Personal comment: Noting further amendments could overrule any verdict.)

The second important issue raised by ThatGearGuy with our knife laws: The length of a knife is now the total length not just the blade. The total length may not have a legal definition… will the measurement extend to behind the pivot?

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Video 2, Title: “UK Flipper Knives Illegal? Confiscated knife returned!”

‘Part 2’

The process of trying to get your goods returned:
Option 1. Ask which is very unlikely to work.
Option 2. Take the case to court, with the risk if you lose you’ll have the cost of both parties.

ThatGearGuy’s legal challenge is that the “flick knife” (the description used by border force/customs) was wholly wrong. ThatGearGuy quotes some relevant sections of law which outline the two definitions: What an automatic flick knife is, and what a manual assisted opening knife is.

Border force cave in and don’t challenge ThatGearGuy’s counter-claim. So the knife is returned.

 

[Bearmont]

We have a similar thing here in Germany. Customs are clutching at straws getting things pulled. I guess because pulling things is their job and they need a job to do. In my case it was also a flipper knife from China (perfectly legal, just not legal to carry), but they said it needed the full sender address in there, and it also didn't have a CE sign or an instruction booklet - which is ridiculous, one's for electronics and the other is not mandatory for folding knives. All that was later let go as I pressed them more, but the address thing wasn't. Anyway, I ended up not getting it. But I bought the same knife off German eBay and Amazon has it too. Just an all-around pointless exercise.