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knife laws explained by a barrister
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I’m bumping this thread after taking a bit of a verbal beating from some members.
Please bear in mind that your good reason for being in possession of a fixed blade may be tested in court by a jury of city dwelling, knife averse jurors who are unsympathetic to a poor misunderstood bushcrafter.
I was making a point in another thread that something designed as a combat knife (which was designed as a weapon, the clue is in the name) will be treated more harshly than a versatile multi purpose bushcraft knife. However if the reason for carrying a non exempt knife could be fulfilled by a legal folding knife then you will have no defence in law.
The way the law is applied has a certain amount of discretion on the part of both the police and courts, you may receive a police caution and have a bushcraft knife confiscated but if you’re found with a combat knife or other offensive weapon you may well be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law.
I‘m not wanting to get into a debate about never seeing plod around, you’ve probably just been lucky so far.
Please bear in mind that your good reason for being in possession of a fixed blade may be tested in court by a jury of city dwelling, knife averse jurors who are unsympathetic to a poor misunderstood bushcrafter.
I was making a point in another thread that something designed as a combat knife (which was designed as a weapon, the clue is in the name) will be treated more harshly than a versatile multi purpose bushcraft knife. However if the reason for carrying a non exempt knife could be fulfilled by a legal folding knife then you will have no defence in law.
The way the law is applied has a certain amount of discretion on the part of both the police and courts, you may receive a police caution and have a bushcraft knife confiscated but if you’re found with a combat knife or other offensive weapon you may well be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law.
I‘m not wanting to get into a debate about never seeing plod around, you’ve probably just been lucky so far.
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A friends father accepted a caution for having a lock knife on him with no legal reason, he now struggles with car insurance and other things like that.
Definitely being aware of what you can and shouldn't carry.
Definitely being aware of what you can and shouldn't carry.
..and I know a guy who had a folding knife confiscated because it was over 76.5 mm cutting edge.
Most modern pocket knives are made with master blades less than three inches long but pocket knives from the early 80’s and before were not subject to this rule and often had longer blades.
His knife had sentimental value as it had belonged to his father.
If you value it or it was expensive then a knife is best kept for use on private land or when you have an in-disputable reason for being “in possession of a bladed article in a public place”, (a different charge from being in possession of an offensive weapon. The difference may seem like sophistry to many of you but the difference in law is huge.)
Finally there has been a recent clarification as to the term “public place”, it is now ANY place that the public may have lawful access to, including paying for entry to an event on private land or crossing a public right of way over private land. This last change in legislation could even be problematic for publicly accessed bushcraft events.
Most modern pocket knives are made with master blades less than three inches long but pocket knives from the early 80’s and before were not subject to this rule and often had longer blades.
His knife had sentimental value as it had belonged to his father.
If you value it or it was expensive then a knife is best kept for use on private land or when you have an in-disputable reason for being “in possession of a bladed article in a public place”, (a different charge from being in possession of an offensive weapon. The difference may seem like sophistry to many of you but the difference in law is huge.)
Finally there has been a recent clarification as to the term “public place”, it is now ANY place that the public may have lawful access to, including paying for entry to an event on private land or crossing a public right of way over private land. This last change in legislation could even be problematic for publicly accessed bushcraft events.
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Hats off to the UK for being the only country I know of with knife laws sillier than ours here in Germany. Granted, knife crime in your urban areas is also worse to the point that it's almost traditional now, but we're also getting there.
Here folders are legal and open carry as long as they're non-locking or two-handed opening, don't have to be both. And fixed blades under 12 cm. People are smart enough not to open carry, anyway.
Still leaves a lot up to the policeman's humor that day if he encounters a guy coming out of the woods with a machete, as these can fall both under knife law and "tools with a purpose". Hatchets and axes, being just as dangerous, are completely legal to carry.
Here folders are legal and open carry as long as they're non-locking or two-handed opening, don't have to be both. And fixed blades under 12 cm. People are smart enough not to open carry, anyway.
Still leaves a lot up to the policeman's humor that day if he encounters a guy coming out of the woods with a machete, as these can fall both under knife law and "tools with a purpose". Hatchets and axes, being just as dangerous, are completely legal to carry.
And there lies the problem, the system in both countries relies on discretion and interpretation on the part of Police and courts, they don’t always get it right.
I don’t know much about Germany’s stop and search laws but in the UK the police only need reasonable suspicion to search a person or vehicle (a warrant is needed to search a home) so a knife need not be carried openly to get you in trouble but carrying it openly is like asking to be prosecuted.
It's the same here. I don't think a lot of people know or even think about saying "no" to a cop. What's reasonable suspicion anyway? If the guy decides to be reasonably suspicious, he'll find a reason. In these situations there could be a big difference in behavior depending on whether you have one policeman or two; or you being alone or having a witness of your own.
A locked enclosure such as a backpack with its zippers secured together by a lock is also considered fine for transporting items we're not allowed to carry.
A locked enclosure such as a backpack with its zippers secured together by a lock is also considered fine for transporting items we're not allowed to carry.
You can decline to give permission to the police wishing to search you and ask that they tell you what they’re searching for beforehand however if they persist with the reasonable suspicion that you’re carrying a knife that isn’t exempt from UK knife laws they will simply arrest you, search you and if they find nothing they will de-arrest you…this leaves them open to an unlawful arrest suit but very few people understand how to go through the IOPC process for claiming compensation so the police do it anyway.
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I'm curious, why carry any knife when you don't have a legally justifiable reason? Carrying one for "just in case" reasons isn't a good reason.
I only ask because I don't often carry a knife because I don't believe I'll need one. My only exception is a Victorinix cyber tool SAK carried with my bike repair kit (bicycle). It has decent pliers and the various sized screwdriver bits are actually my best screwdrivers! They simply work better than even my best branded screwdrivers. So that's in my commute bag right at the bottom of a single compartment sack. That knife I have rarely used for it's knife. Plus it's edc legal.
So in my pov I simply think that if you're carrying without a good reason then it's right to have it confiscated should you actually bump into a police officer that is actually going to give a flying f--k about a packed away knife that doesn't conform to legal carry specs. I will happily be educated as to how not having a good reason but still carrying makes sense.
I only ask because I don't often carry a knife because I don't believe I'll need one. My only exception is a Victorinix cyber tool SAK carried with my bike repair kit (bicycle). It has decent pliers and the various sized screwdriver bits are actually my best screwdrivers! They simply work better than even my best branded screwdrivers. So that's in my commute bag right at the bottom of a single compartment sack. That knife I have rarely used for it's knife. Plus it's edc legal.
So in my pov I simply think that if you're carrying without a good reason then it's right to have it confiscated should you actually bump into a police officer that is actually going to give a flying f--k about a packed away knife that doesn't conform to legal carry specs. I will happily be educated as to how not having a good reason but still carrying makes sense.
I don't carry one unless I'm going on a hike. Still, it used to be perfectly normal to carry a pocket knife as a labourer, for food prep and other small things. In some parts of Europe and rural areas in particular, it still is. I have a flashlight on my keychain that I always carry with me. I could set it to strobe and blind incoming traffic. Or I could stick it in someone's eye. Do I?
That it's reasonable to have something taken away from you just because you're carrying it is so upside-down on a basic human level. In an urban crime hotspot that may be different.
That it's reasonable to have something taken away from you just because you're carrying it is so upside-down on a basic human level. In an urban crime hotspot that may be different.
I routinely carry a SAK in my work bag.
I also carry a SAK Rescue Tool, which has a locking knife blade, a seatbelt cutter and a glass saw, I do carry that just in case I need it.
I also have a locking knife on my Buoyancy Aid for kayaking/canoeing again incase I need it.
I believe that the reasons I carry/have the knives within easy are reasonable and justifiable.
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I also carry a SAK Rescue Tool, which has a locking knife blade, a seatbelt cutter and a glass saw, I do carry that just in case I need it.
I also have a locking knife on my Buoyancy Aid for kayaking/canoeing again incase I need it.
I believe that the reasons I carry/have the knives within easy are reasonable and justifiable.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Ive just gold hold of a miltary belt of ali exprrtress that i can attach my molle pouches and leatehrman surge pouch to, so if im going shopping, its in car or dont have with me, if im onsite doing a job, then its fair to have tools with me on my belt, also as the back of my car is full of tools, its easy to say im on way to a job/back from, perhaps more of a problem is walking up high street to a job with belt on, would anyone notice a leatehrman surge nylon belt pouch???
I on the other hand think that it is responsible people (particularly men as role models) not carrying knives that is part of the problem we now have. I find it quite depressing when people almost boast that they don't need a knife so don't carry one. In my experience, tools, including knives, are something that one learns to do without if you do not have them. Using this as a justification why no one really needs the thing is an approach that could be applied to an awful lot of things that many people would miss. Need is a terrible yard stick when it comes to giving up freedom.
If knives were seen as every day tools, boring items with about as much status a set of house keys, then they would be less attractive to the youngsters wanting to carry to gain instant "respect". I remember as a teen at school, a peer learned I owned/carried a pocket knife and wanted to show me his "knife". Brought it to school. It was some hideously low quality stilleto-look-alike. I distinctly recall I was hugely unimpressed, it was a useless shape, dull edge, wobbly pivot, and altogether impractical. I had owned and carried a SAK and assorted pocket knives, locking and not, for about six years at the time.
I am not advocating that people, now, carry locking knives or sheath knives just incase they are useful, but I am advocating that responsible people do not leave the field entirely, that they carry sub-3" non-lockers every chance they get. That they take the opportunity to show friends and colleagues that knives can be useful, and not these scary things only used to commit crime.
If knives were seen as every day tools, boring items with about as much status a set of house keys, then they would be less attractive to the youngsters wanting to carry to gain instant "respect". I remember as a teen at school, a peer learned I owned/carried a pocket knife and wanted to show me his "knife". Brought it to school. It was some hideously low quality stilleto-look-alike. I distinctly recall I was hugely unimpressed, it was a useless shape, dull edge, wobbly pivot, and altogether impractical. I had owned and carried a SAK and assorted pocket knives, locking and not, for about six years at the time.
I am not advocating that people, now, carry locking knives or sheath knives just incase they are useful, but I am advocating that responsible people do not leave the field entirely, that they carry sub-3" non-lockers every chance they get. That they take the opportunity to show friends and colleagues that knives can be useful, and not these scary things only used to commit crime.
I agree and always carry a Swiss Army knife when out and about unless I’m going to be visiting one of a number of places where knives are restricted such as the Palace of Westminster, a school, college of further education, courthouse or airport. I also leave the pocket knife at home when I visit a public house, just to avoid misunderstandings.
I can guarantee that I will need a knife at some point during the day though, while working in the fields and woods at home, so a legal every day pocket knife is essential.
I'm not boasting about not carrying a non-legal edc knife I'm just stating that I can't imagine the need to carry a knife that doesn't fit that legal carry status without having a need for it. I think the very fact I mentioned a knife I do carry that is legal carry with a reason to carry it is probably not that far from your view as expressed in your last paragraph. For me that's every day use, working day commute back up tool.
I also think knives are seen as everyday tools by most ppl. The issue is that for some ppl that everyday use they have that tool for is criminal and violent. Since laws have to be fairly universal there's always going to be ppl caught up perhaps unfairly by the laws. They do need the laws to have the means to try and combat knife crime. There are enough "loopholes" such that if you need a fixed or locking or long knife for a good reason you can legally carry them. The issue is there's probably not many ppl who absolutely must carry them for a real reason where they might get caught our with it where a legal carry would be perfectly serviceable if not ideal.
I also think knives are seen as everyday tools by most ppl. The issue is that for some ppl that everyday use they have that tool for is criminal and violent. Since laws have to be fairly universal there's always going to be ppl caught up perhaps unfairly by the laws. They do need the laws to have the means to try and combat knife crime. There are enough "loopholes" such that if you need a fixed or locking or long knife for a good reason you can legally carry them. The issue is there's probably not many ppl who absolutely must carry them for a real reason where they might get caught our with it where a legal carry would be perfectly serviceable if not ideal.
That assumes though that laws are written to target criminals. Laws target the law-abiding. An evil individual will have that balisong in his pocket no matter what.
Sure, there's also the punitive aspect, should a bad guy be caught with a knife. But as I hinted at with the flashlight comparison - it's not the item that makes the problem. Steel pipes, railroad spikes, a pocketful of bees - that's all legal carry, isn't it?
Sure, there's also the punitive aspect, should a bad guy be caught with a knife. But as I hinted at with the flashlight comparison - it's not the item that makes the problem. Steel pipes, railroad spikes, a pocketful of bees - that's all legal carry, isn't it?
I might be going out on a limb here, but those items you list may still get you in trouble in the UK if a police officer is suspicious and you cannot give a good reason for carrying them. It is the offensive weapon law, which essentially allows the police to deem all sorts of things weapons if they are being carried in odd places/times without a convincing good reason.
@Paul_B
Apologies, your post sparked my remark about "almost" boasting, thank you for clarrifying. I have heard very similar sounding things said by people who were almost boasting and using the fact that they bumbled through life without a knife as evidence that no one really needed one. This was often followed by something to the effect that by not carrying a knife themselves, they were making the world a safer place
. Perhaps those conversations have made me overly sensitive 
I think this bit of the law arose from a single piece of case law setting a legal precedent.
