Knife Law (Rant)

[Paul_B]

I like the story of a cafe in Texas where on entering the establishment you handed in your guns, rifles and spurs for them to put into a cubbyhole / letter rack racking with a raffleticket to get them back. not sure if this was a true place but I like the idea of Texas old boys walking in with their rifles and side arms and handing them over like handing in a coat to a cloakroom at a club in the UK. It was that innocent to them and TBH it probably was.

As far as guns go they are easy to get hold of in this country if you know people from the worst areas of most towns and cities. I am from a middle class background and area myself but I do know people from "the wrong side of the tracks" if you like who do have different views on life and things than some of the people on this thread. Like people who go out to get into fights, who if they lose the fight will come back with a baseball bat or piece of wood to get back at the victor. I heard a story of a young kid on being asked what he wanted to do when he grew up and he said deal drugs. Not suprising in light of the fact that most of his family were either inside, just coming out or just going into prison for dealing or violence. All laws need to handle all situations from someone having a knife to do harm to having a knife to do good. A hard compromise but it does kind of work with aa bit of commons sense from coppers and legitimate knife users. Stick to either non-locking sub 3" knives or only carry something locking, fixed or longer than 3" if you are about to use it, are using it or coming back from using it in a reasonable or arguably legitimate use. Not hard to do really, is it? Am I really missing something? It doesn't matter about people's perceptions having changed only the fact that the use is right, reasaonable and arguable should it go to a court process. Even if you have a plonker for a copper having watched said demo then arrested you for having the knife used in the bushcraft demo. It will have to go to court provided you don't take a caution I reckon. That means someone else to describe the reason to have said knife. It would also have to go through a CPS lawyer surely. If the copper is a jobsworth plonker then the lawyer is the first point ofpotential sanity, the courts the second. A bind I know but if you have a reasonable reason for carrying a knife stick to youur guns so to speak and calmly argue your case throughout whatever process comes along. Probably niaive I'ms sure but I've still got aa modicum of trust left with the police and legal process.

 

[dogwood]

Apprently I am afraid because when the lottery comes in, hello Texas, and concealed carry.

OK, but understand that you're not safer because of concealed carry. Fact: California has extremely restrictive gun laws, Texas has quite liberal ones.

If your thesis about an armed citizenry controlling crime is correct, them Texas should have a substantially lower violent crime rate than California.

But in fact, California and Texas have almost identical violent crime rates. So the people carrying in Texas -- still a minority of the population, fyi -- have had zero effect on crime rates.

Criminals are a fantasy. You really need to move here, I know just the local store for you to use.

I didn't say criminals are a fantasy. I've lived in plenty of very rough US neighborhoods and been in plenty of scrapes and I know the UK and the issues you face there pretty well.

What I said was the idea that EDC is going to protect you is a fantasy. As matter of fact it almost never happens that someone successfully stops an attack by pulling their own weapon.

The only area where armed citizenry prove to be a good deterrent is in the case of certain classes of home crime -- when crooks have a reasonable expectation that they'll face an armed homeowner, they go elsewhere.

On the street, you're dreaming of you think pulling out your weapon will make a difference. Street crime has an entirely different dynamic -- the crooks won't make a move unless they've got the drop on you.

This happens to even highly trained people. Nearly all cop killings -- and they're armed and trained, of course -- happen because of surprise. The bad guy pulls a gun and pops them before the cop can respond.

The problem with these laws is they do not stop criminals, because criminals break the law. I do not want to carry a knife for self defense, a knife is not defensive, but being able to carry any of the nice plastic defensive tools availble in the US would be nice. Being able to carry anything incase some druged up or drunk idiot decides to kill me, would be nice.

One of the fallacies of these discussions always has to do with the idea that the criminal behavior -- i.e. they can get guns or knives because they don't care about the law so we should be able to arm in turn -- has any bearing on whether it's fair an reasonable to limit the freedom's of law abiding people.

These are two distinct issues.

On the criminal side, the laws are valuable because they give law enforcement the means of dealing with people who are clearly carrying weapons for no good reason.

Now when it comes to limiting the freedoms of law abiding citizens the laws get pretty grating. In general I'm against most gun and knife laws because they unfairly burden law abiding citizens. However, I'm not blind to the utility of the laws.

In other words, the best argument against these laws is not "I need a the ability to carry and defend myself" because that's both statistically and specifically fallacious. People aren't getting into knife and gun fights to defend themselves (see cop example above). THAT'S the fantasy I'm talking about.

The better argument is simple: a society should not unfairly or unreasonably burden law abiding citizens in order to control criminals. There are other ways to control crime that are more effective. If you're focusing on disarmament, you're focusing on the wrong thing.

 

[dogwood]

Also FYI, Florida has very liberal gun laws -- open carry, no permits, etc., -- and it has a crime rate that is 50% higher than either California or Texas.

In other words, EDC has zero effect on crime.

 

[HillBill]

If you were unlucky enough to get a mis informed police officer and got taken to the station, it's unlikely that you will have a mis informed custody sergeant.

The policeman takes you to the station, he doesnt charge you or send you to court. There are more experienced officers there who will make that decision.

 

[MI5_Dog]

How do the UK laws handle the Sikh Kirpan?

 

[apj1974]

The Criminal Justice Act 1988 says:

4)It shall be a defence for a person charged with an offence under this section to prove that he had good reason or lawful authority for having the article with him in a public place.

5)Without prejudice to the generality of subsection (4) above, it shall be a defence for a person charged with an offence under this section to prove that he had the article with him—
(a)for use at work;
(b)for religious reasons; or
(c)as part of any national costume.


so basically religious reasons are considered part of the "good reason" for carrying a knife, however it is up to the person to prove this (innocent till proven guilty??!). However many Sikhs these days choose not to carry a real kirpan but instead have a symbolic one (ie one that is not usable as a weapon or a representation of one on the comb in their hair or a pendant around their kneck)

 

[Itzal]

The Criminal Justice Act 1988 says:

4)It shall be a defence for a person charged with an offence under this section to prove that he had good reason or lawful authority for having the article with him in a public place.

5)Without prejudice to the generality of subsection (4) above, it shall be a defence for a person charged with an offence under this section to prove that he had the article with him—
(a)for use at work;
(b)for religious reasons; or
(c)as part of any national costume.


so basically religious reasons are considered part of the "good reason" for carrying a knife, however it is up to the person to prove this (innocent till proven guilty??!). However many Sikhs these days choose not to carry a real kirpan but instead have a symbolic one (ie one that is not usable as a weapon or a representation of one on the comb in their hair or a pendant around their kneck)

The onus of proof is on you as the person carrying the knife to prove to the Police your lawful authority or reasonable excuse, not for the Police to prove your guilt. So for offensive weapons you could say, your guilty until you prove your innocence. I am not saying I agree just that that is how its actually done. Also publishing statute law and not all the case law, whih make up much of the interpretation leads people to wrongly perceive the practical elements of the law.

 

[jonnno]

Were you going to or from the aircraft? If you had the bag in the hold and the rozzers stopped you in the airport on the other side then it seems a bit crap!

I have a standard Frosts Mora knife and I pretty much always take it when I'm out walking or camping. It's never crossed my mind that it could be considered as not a "tool" at that point (not that I tend to use it much).

I don't worry about stuff like knife laws as much as all the other crap that comes in. Its easy to get blinded (like the Americans do over guns) by specific laws about freedoms while at the same time not noticing that your civil liberties are getting trampled to crap left right and centre. (In the UKs case ID cards, banning of protests, banning of photography, retention of DNA, monitoring of internet traffic to name just a few.)

I think if you're in the woods with a bushcraft knife then you're unlikely to get hassled if you're being sensible and that we should put more effort into complaining about stuff like not being forced to carry identification or being banned from taking photographs!

i got caught going through Gatwick security with a folding saw! (dont ask!) it was in my semi hidden pocket on my backpack and i forgot to check!

police asked why and where i was going (winter climbing in ben nevis) and they both said fair enough and one was contemplating giving it back to me!! but the other said no and i would have to collect it from gatwick police station some other time!

i must admit i felt a right tXt but i wasnt worried that i would be going to prison.

i now check every pocket of everything at least 10 times before flying!

 

[Corso]

anything bigger than a non-locking sub 3 inch folder is illegal in public areas

yeah i know thats why i tried to keep it short and sweet in a nutshell

or should that be short sweet and wrong.

anyone carrying an offensive weapon should be locked up. QUOTE]

not an unreasonable comment, I carry folders,lockers fixed blades and axes quite often- not one is a weapon - they are all tools - if I were carrying as a 'weapon' I would expect to get locked up.

 

[MrEd]

^^ ok is what i should say is illegal without good reason

my bad sorry

 

[Itzal]

Were you going to or from the aircraft? If you had the bag in the hold and the rozzers stopped you in the airport on the other side then it seems a bit crap!

I have a standard Frosts Mora knife and I pretty much always take it when I'm out walking or camping. It's never crossed my mind that it could be considered as not a "tool" at that point (not that I tend to use it much).

I don't worry about stuff like knife laws as much as all the other crap that comes in. Its easy to get blinded (like the Americans do over guns) by specific laws about freedoms while at the same time not noticing that your civil liberties are getting trampled to crap left right and centre. (In the UKs case ID cards, banning of protests, banning of photography, retention of DNA, monitoring of internet traffic to name just a few.)

I think if you're in the woods with a bushcraft knife then you're unlikely to get hassled if you're being sensible and that we should put more effort into complaining about stuff like not being forced to carry identification or being banned from taking photographs!

If you had it in hand luggage (mistake or otherwise) you are very lucky you got the opportunity to pick it up from a Police Stn, they have no obligation to hold it for you and quite easily could have handed it to the Airport Security staff for destruction. I would be saying thank you if I was in your shoes.

 

[Itzal]

If you are carrying that Mora in a pub or shopping mall, then no, you should not. If you are carrying it in the country or woods, then you have a good reason to be carrying it. The law is very simple and protects the innocent. The Spyderco UKPK has gone a long way to making up for lack of locking mechanism in day to day carry, it is the only knife I need as EDC. I have carried the Leatherman wave also for nearly 10 years now with no problem whatsoever.

A Leatherman normally has a locking blade, so if a Policeman wanted to be pedantic, your carrying an offensive weapon. You should not simply wanter around town with a leatherman on your belt 'just incase' its not reasonable excuse!!

 

[HillBill]

A Leatherman normally has a locking blade, so if a Policeman wanted to be pedantic, your carrying an offensive weapon. You should not simply wanter around town with a leatherman on your belt 'just incase' its not reasonable excuse!!

He would not be carrying an offensive weapon at all mate.

Offensive means it has to be used in an offensive (attacking/threatening) way, before it is classed as an offensive weapon, after all it is a tool and not a weapon.

Lock blades
Fixed blade
Air rifles

Are classed the same as ( when it comes to offensive weapons)

Feather duster
Teddy bear
shoe lace
slice of bread,

All of which are offensive weapons if used in an aggressive or threatening way. But not, if they are not. The Law is the law. It says what it says. Police use the law as it is. Nothing is an offensive weapon if it can be bought legally, until it is used illegally.

 

[Corso]

Nothing is an offensive weapon if it can be bought legally, until it is used illegally.

A fair point - I think we are in danger of mixing up two seperate pieces of legislation

 

[Itzal]

He would not be carrying an offensive weapon at all mate.

Offensive means it has to be used in an offensive (attacking/threatening) way, before it is classed as an offensive weapon, after all it is a tool and not a weapon.

Lock blades
Fixed blade
Air rifles

Are classed the same as ( when it comes to offensive weapons)

Feather duster
Teddy bear
shoe lace
slice of bread,

All of which are offensive weapons if used in an aggressive or threatening way. But not, if they are not. The Law is the law. It says what it says. Police use the law as it is. Nothing is an offensive weapon if it can be bought legally, until it is used illegally.

I understand where you are coming from, however, if you read the legislation you need 'reasonable excuse' to carry a bladed article in a public place, now I am more meaning walking around a public place such as a town here. If stopped you have to justify and convince a Policeman you have a good reason, he/she does not have to prove you had the intent to use it as such. I do like your "Nothing is an offensive weapon if it can be bought legally, until it is used illegally" It is a good way of putting it.

 

[Tadpole]

if you read the legislation you need 'reasonable excuse' to carry a bladed article in a public place, now I am more meaning walking around a public place such as a town here. If stopped you have to justify and convince a Policeman you have a good reason, he/she does not have to prove you had the intent to use it as such. I do like your "Nothing is an offensive weapon if it can be bought legally, until it is used illegally" It is a good way of putting it.

No the law is quite clear, sub 3" non-locking knife and you need no reason, none what so ever.
"It is an offence for any person, without lawful authority or good reason, to have with him in a public place, any article which has a blade or is sharply pointed except for a folding pocket-knife which has a cutting edge to its blade not exceeding 3 inches."

 

[HillBill]

I understand where you are coming from, however, if you read the legislation you need 'reasonable excuse' to carry a bladed article in a public place, now I am more meaning walking around a public place such as a town here. If stopped you have to justify and convince a Policeman you have a good reason, he/she does not have to prove you had the intent to use it as such. I do like your "Nothing is an offensive weapon if it can be bought legally, until it is used illegally" It is a good way of putting it.

Like Tadpole says, a sub 3"non locker is fine anytime anywhere. Lockers and fixed blades you would be correct that you cant just walk around with it for no reason, but any reason for which you need a knife "is" good reason.

Look at stanley knives, they are classed as lock knives yet you never see anyone batting an eyelid at those, if you can use a stanley for it, then thats good reason and you could swap the stanley for woodlore if you wished and still be within the law completely.

 

[Itzal]

Ok ok I have just got up calm down, right yes you can carry a sub 3 inch, non locking blade.

((REGINA - v - DESMOND GARCIA DEEGAN 1998) upheld the Harris ruling stating that "folding was held to mean non-locking". No leave to appeal was granted.))

If you wave around a sub 3 in knife in public you cannot complain if a bobby turns up and starts asking questions, despite the fact you meant no harm some hyper sensitive old dear may have, and as such the police are required to act, I know most of the time its a misunderstanding and illogical fear from people but thats how it actually goes when you get that call.

Hillbill, not sure I agree on the "any reason is a good reason" when you approach people (and its normally the undesirable element) the reasons are just not good enough to allow then to continue on in a public place. Please don't misunderstand me our laws are such that the average person suffers because of the minority of clowns who think its acceptable sport to threaten or stab people on a nightly basis. I fully support harsher sentence's for the misuse of weapons.

 

[HillBill]

Hillbill, not sure I agree on the "any reason is a good reason" when you approach people (and its normally the undesirable element) the reasons are just not good enough to allow then to continue on in a public place. Please don't misunderstand me our laws are such that the average person suffers because of the minority of clowns who think its acceptable sport to threaten or stab people on a nightly basis. I fully support harsher sentence's for the misuse of weapons.

May have worded that more poorly than i should have .

What i meant was any legal reason that you need a knife for, is good reason. Because it is and only at the time you need it. It is unacceptable to have a knife for work which you have used all day, then go to the pub with the knife in your pocket and claim good reason as you needed it for work. Because at the time you are not at work, and therefore have no reason to need it. No reason is not good reason and you fall foul of the law..

So its possible for a person with a knife to be on the right side of the law at 16.30 but by 18.00 be on the wrong side with the same knife.

 

[Itzal]

May have worded that more poorly than i should have .

What i meant was any legal reason that you need a knife for, is good reason. Because it is and only at the time you need it. It is unacceptable to have a knife for work which you have used all day, then go to the pub with the knife in your pocket and claim good reason as you needed it for work. Because at the time you are not at work, and therefore have no reason to need it. No reason is not good reason and you fall foul of the law..

So its possible for a person with a knife to be on the right side of the law at 16.30 but by 18.00 be on the wrong side with the same knife.

Couldn't agree more, I think we are on the same page here buddy.