Knife Law (Rant)

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nige7whit

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Feb 10, 2009
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Nige, there is an extensive thread on the UKPoliceOnline regarding BoR, Magna Carta and the freeman movement.

http://www.ukpoliceonline.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=41026

A number of the posters have carried out extensive research into the subject and it isn't as clear-cut as it appears. The thread, while quite long, is worth browsing.

It wasn't my intention to portray the 1688 Bill Of Rights as a definitive guide for modern use, but to highlight the eagerness that politicians seem to have for 'creating' a bill of rights for the UK, without referring to the one we have had for 3 centuries.
 

Martyn

Bushcrafter through and through
Aug 7, 2003
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Dogwood, I agree completely with pretty much everything you've posted. EDC's in the US often mean EDC (Every Day Carry) for self defence. The carry laws between the UK and US are similar with that notable exception. It's illegal to carry for self defence here, while in the US there is no such restriction. As a result, many people are quite open about EDC-ing a knife for self defence. In the UK, I tend to think of an EDC as a tool rather than a weapon and I think many others do too, that said, I'm sure there are people in the UK who would like to legally carry for self defence.

Under UK law I cannot carry for defense, but a criminal can carry for offense. That makes no sense!

Case in point. I'm certainly no expert on the subject, but I know enough about knife fighting to know you never want to be in one. If you spend some time studying the subject, you'll realise that carrying a knife for self defence is sheer lunacy and as Dogwood says, done mainly by paranoid, frightened fantasists.

If you steer clear of the macho forums and look at the subject seriously, it becomes clear. Putting it as simply as I can, If you are mugged at knife-point and you have a knife of your own in your pocket, you have a few options. You can give the mugger your wallet and hope he's happy with that and runs off. If you are fit, you can "push and run". Or you can pull your knife in retaliation and hope for a Mexican stand-off.

Looking at the last option....

Knives are lethal things, but it's unlikely your mugger wants to actually stab you. It will massively increase the severity of his crime and increase his punishment too. However, if you draw a knife on him, the stakes for both of you just got a lot bigger. There is a very small chance that the Mexican stand-off will work. Both of you might think "stuff this" and run off in opposite directions. Congratulations, your bluff/gamble paid off.

However, that's not likely to happen.

Why? Because any knife fight is likely to be won by the person who acts the fastest and is the most savage in their attack. It's the golden rule. You dont bluff, that will get you killed. Forget all the Hollywood "fencing", in reality most knife fights are over in less than 5 seconds and the winner is almost always the one who moves into action immediately and with a very high level of aggression. If your opponent does the same, then the whole thing becomes incredibly savage.

Now you know the golden rule too. So back to our mugger. You are standing there, facing the knife with a knife of your own in your pocket. You dont know how skilled your opponent is, so you have to assume he at least is aware of the golden rule. You have to assume that if you pull your knife, you will put him in fear of his life and will give him no option other than to attack you immediately with a high level of savagery. Even someone highly skilled in say Fillipino or Israeli knife fighting techniques, is still going to feel fear when confronted with a knife. They will attack, it's life and death for both of you.

It may be that your attacker is bluffing, but you cannot rely on that because if he isnt, you will die.

The million dollar question is, are you actually prepared to launch a lethal and savage attack on your opponent? If yes, maybe you have a chance, if no, dont ever carry a knife for self defence, because you will die.

So, lets assume you are a big tough guy who never backs down and your opponent is the same and you both attack immediately. Who will win? Well for a start, your opponent has his knife drawn and is ready to attack. Yours is in your pocket. Can you draw it, deploy it and go on the offensive in under 1 second? If not, you will die. Because as soon as your opponent sees your knife leave your pocket, he will go medieval on you because he knows he has to - the golden rule. He's not going to hang around waiting for you to fumble the blade open.

In short, if you have studied the subject and practised martial blade craft and are skilled and are prepared to savagely kill another person, then you know these issues and can make your own mind up. If you are none of the above, then at best, carrying a knife for self defence gives you a false sense of security. At worst, it raises the stakes to life or death and puts you in far, far more danger than you would be without it.

Be sensible. Carry as a tool, no worries, carry as a self defence weapon - you are either a very scary person or a complete fool, there is no middle ground.

I hope this post doesnt contravene any posting regs, I know it's a sensitive issue.
 
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caliban

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Apr 16, 2008
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That's a brilliant post Martyn. I'd also add that in the present judicial climate, successfully defending yourself with a knife could bring about legal consequences that would be more damaging to your personal life, employment prospects and family than actually being stabbed, as recent "criminal" cases prove.

On self defence generally, the mugger always has the advantage, it doesn't matter how big or aggressive you look, or are, or how many hours you've spent learning martial arts. The mugger has the advantage because he goes out primed for combat. In military terms he is fully "mobilised", and a fully mobilized army will roll over an army that's not on a war footing. Pearl harbour springs to mind. Most successful martial arts, the real Geoff Thompson type, are significantly about instilling an attitude of being permanently psychologically prepared for fighting. A little bit of awareness is fine, but walking around in public in a constant state of high alert is very wearing and not many people can live their lives that way. I can't anyway.
 

nigeltm

Full Member
Aug 8, 2008
484
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It wasn't my intention to portray the 1688 Bill Of Rights as a definitive guide for modern use, but to highlight the eagerness that politicians seem to have for 'creating' a bill of rights for the UK, without referring to the one we have had for 3 centuries.
Oops, apologies!

I guess I've spent too much time on UKPoliceOnline. We get quite a few members of the Freeman movement (or deluded fools as some may call them!) posting about the sanctity of the BoR and how modern day laws don't apply to a freeman of the land!
 

nigeltm

Full Member
Aug 8, 2008
484
16
55
south Wales
Knife fighting:

Lesson 1 - use your mouth (or feet) so you don't have to fight.

Lesson 2 - if you do have to fight your opponent doesn't even see the knife until YOU make the first strike.

Lesson 3 - knife fighting is for fools and nothing like the movies!

As Itzal and others have said, keep you eyes open and avoid the situation in the first place. Knife fighting is a dangerous, dirty and, if you are lucky enough to survive, you'll probably end up in the dock. If you do get mugged run away, hand over your wallet or even a "sacrificial" wallet with a couple of old cards and a fiver, BUT DON'T EVEN CONSIDER PULLING A KNIFE.

MODS - a candidate for a locked thread as it's now way off topic and not in the spirit of the site?
 

HillBill

Bushcrafter through and through
Oct 1, 2008
8,165
159
W. Yorkshire
Oops, apologies!

I guess I've spent too much time on UKPoliceOnline. We get quite a few members of the Freeman movement (or deluded fools as some may call them!) posting about the sanctity of the BoR and how modern day laws don't apply to a freeman of the land!

I'm not part of any freeman movement. But i object to your comment about them. Folk can do what they like. Why is some one deluded for not wanting to be ruled by an accepted corrupt system? Why are they deluded for standing up for the "rights" given to all of us by LAW?
 
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HillBill

Bushcrafter through and through
Oct 1, 2008
8,165
159
W. Yorkshire
Knife fighting:

Lesson 1 - use your mouth (or feet) so you don't have to fight.

Lesson 2 - if you do have to fight your opponent doesn't even see the knife until YOU make the first strike.

Lesson 3 - knife fighting is for fools and nothing like the movies!

As Itzal and others have said, keep you eyes open and avoid the situation in the first place. Knife fighting is a dangerous, dirty and, if you are lucky enough to survive, you'll probably end up in the dock. If you do get mugged run away, hand over your wallet or even a "sacrificial" wallet with a couple of old cards and a fiver, BUT DON'T EVEN CONSIDER PULLING A KNIFE.

MODS - a candidate for a locked thread as it's now way off topic and not in the spirit of the site?

So why did you post that then? Trying to get it locked are you?
 

C_Claycomb

Moderator staff
Mod
Oct 6, 2003
7,629
2,703
Bedfordshire
Well, everyone has behaved very well, but the thread has been hovering on the edge of getting locked for a while now.

There is some interesting stuff, but there is also starting to be elements of politics, which we try to avoid, and the whole knife as a weapon thing is really not what this site is about.

While there is good info here, there is also a good chance the thread will disappear in the near future, so if you want to save anything for personal reference, now is the time to do your copy and pasting.

Cheers guys.
 
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