Fox hunting, banned.

[C_Claycomb]

I think that this has just about run its course.

I can't think of many places where this could have been discussed as it has been here, without lots of shouting and histrionics. :You_Rock_ :biggthump

I have to take up the idea that "Nothing NEEDS to be killed". That is rather a broad sweeping statement. I agree that historically people the world over have chosen to kill animals first, and ask questions later, but there are plenty of examples where people DO have to kill animals, (or have had to in the past). Often this is because humans have encroached on animals' habitat, have introduced something where it shouldn't be, or have upset the status quo between an animal and its food, or its predetors. The alternative to not killing in such cases may be the eradication of native species, damage to crops or stock, habitat destruction, or even attacks upon people.

Clearly foxes don't fall neatly into any of the above senarios, unless it is the stock part, but that is open to debate.

I am not conviced that the fox really needs to be hunted to keep its numbers in check. I have never heard anyone stand up and say that hunting was all that efficient compared to shooting, and there is no way that the local land owners are shooting as many foxes as I see dead on the road on my way to work! :shock: Mind you there are places where rare(ish) birds nest that foxes are a real menace. Of course these are sensitive areas and would never have had a hunt through anyway.

On a side tack, I was talking to a friend in the police and he loathed the idea of a ban. His reasoning was purely to do with the difficulty of enforcement. How to tell the difference between a drag hunt in progress and a fox hunt for instance. Not to mention trying to stop fell packs which can be miles from roads. Rural police are already stretched, here is another thing for them to worry about, fill in forms on and run after.

Oh well, guess the next couple of years will tell whose predictions were true :roll:

 

[Tantalus]

yeah simon i apologise, ultimately you are quite right and it is merely our selfish attitudes that seeks to control the countryside (amongst other things lol)

but i would like to say that foxes interfere with farming and gamekeeping to a degreee where it is beyond nuisance

they are clever and destructive both

it is my opinion that they should be controlled in order for other activities to be carried out

i am not just talking about the incredibly stupid pheasants that are released every year by the thousand

take a look at a grouse moor and see the devestation a heavy fox population could do. indeed many grouse moors have suffered a drop in numbers due to the re emergence of predators of all kinds, mainly raptors at the moment but mink and domestic cats gone wild take their toll too

foxes will and do regularly take lambs which does little to endear them to farmers either

as for introducing bear, i would love it and wolves as well, wild boar and beavers too

sadly there are few corners of our little island now capable of supporting large carnivores for an extended time but hopefully some time in the not too distant future it will again become feasible

Tant

 

[Frogo]

The people here who are to blame are the ignorant farmers who always cry wolf when live stock is killed, the fox does not kill (healthy) live stock, If it does take a lamb it is for one or two reasons the animal maybe sick, injured or abandoned by its mother. The majority of killings today are by the humble docile domestic stray dog, Fact.
I have been tracking and watching wildlife for years, and find that the fox is a very lazy animal, and only kills for food, it will also eat what ever is available plants, insects etc. Modern farming methods have striped the countryside of the foxes natural habitat, leaving the fox with pretty little natural food. If a farmer can’t control the safe keeping of his herds because he is to lazy, well then good luck to the fox, don’t kill the animal for doing what it is supposed to, show a little respect for the animal and educate the ignorant country folk.

Frogo

 

[mr dazzler]

Jack asks-will the fox population explode?? Well I don't know, but if it does especially in towns and cities, eventually someone "will have to do something about it", probly the council (they take most everything on themselves anyway :roll: ) And if your local council is anything like my one, they'll get (or invent) a charter mark award/investor in people category, then announce a £450,000 scheme (in its inaugural year) to employ fox community wardens to patrol the roads and streets. They'll brag and advertise their strategy assessment in the next issue of their propaganda express, and boast how they've been "praised" and "been recognised for innovation" Then the wardens (trained at a specialist school in America at a cost to the tax-payer of £12,000 each warden), will then trap em (hyoomainly of course) put them in a fox sanctuary and if good homes cant be got for them, sent to a vet to be put to sleep (at a cost to the tax payer of £450 each). What about the prospect of the vets being picketed by "interested groups" like PETA, who'd also be trying to get people prosecuted for allowing their pet rabbit/cat/gerbil to be attacked by a wanton fox :roll: :roll: :roll:
Well just my version of irevernt hyoomer. :?:
MR D

 

[Frogo]

The towns and cities are getting bigger and there is a ever growing population of wildlife living in our cities, but are we going to control all of them, I think not, most wildlife in the cities are welcomed as most folk do not get the oppotunity to see them in there natural habitat. Foxes scavenge and mainly take are waste food which we leave littering are streets.
What are we to do we the domestic cat which is killing large numbers of are native birds.

Frogo

 

[mr dazzler]

Just out of interest has anyone ever eaten fox meat?

 

[Tony]

That's not exactly relevant to the thread. That’s a much more pertinent question for the food forum, keep it in there please and keep this thread on topic.

Cheers

 

[mr dazzler]

Why in your opinion isn't that question "on topic". Some have mentioned on this thread about only hunting to eat, kill to eat etc
I was only asking an inocent question in relation to that

 

[JakeR]

The relationship between hunting and hunting for food is a discussion relevent to this thread, as is hunting to control numbers. What the fox actually tastes like is irrelevant.

 

[Great Pebble]

Aww well... I guess that's the end of fox hunting then...

Dead as the dodo... Like badger baiting, hare coursing, dog fighting, cock fighting and anything else that's "cruel"

I will say this much though, if any of you are looking for a wee bit of land to play on you've a very good chance to ingratiate youself with some owners in the next few months. Tally Ho!

 

[Tony]

Why in your opinion isn't that question "on topic". Some have mentioned on this thread about only hunting to eat, kill to eat etc
I was only asking an inocent question in relation to that

Mr D It has no relevance to the thread. There is also a forum that it would be much more appropriate to ask such a question in. This was the question used to start the thread and it is the one that should guide the answers in this thread.

Ok. Yesterday was an historic day for the countryside. Fox hunting was banned.

Is this a good thing or a bad thing.

Will thousands of people lose their jobs, will it create more jobs?

Does it really matter?

What are you thoughts? The usual forum etiquette applys please! :biggthump

The bottom line is that if this thread jumps onto another subject, becomes argumentative, or, if people continue to question the very relevant, thread specific comments made by moderators, it will be closed.

 

[ESpy]

Apropos of very little, I had more near-misses on running down foxes in Bristol than I ever have living in the country, BTW.

 

[TheViking]

Just out of interest has anyone ever eaten fox meat?

I have!

 

[Lurch]

The people here who are to blame are the ignorant farmers who always cry wolf when live stock is killed, the fox does not kill (healthy) live stock, If it does take a lamb it is for one or two reasons the animal maybe sick, injured or abandoned by its mother. The majority of killings today are by the humble docile domestic stray dog, Fact.
I have been tracking and watching wildlife for years, and find that the fox is a very lazy animal, and only kills for food, it will also eat what ever is available plants, insects etc. Modern farming methods have striped the countryside of the foxes natural habitat, leaving the fox with pretty little natural food. If a farmer can’t control the safe keeping of his herds because he is to lazy, well then good luck to the fox, don’t kill the animal for doing what it is supposed to, show a little respect for the animal and educate the ignorant country folk.

Frogo

ignorant country folk eh?
I really should stop reading this thread!
Your comments re foxes taking lambs I can assure you are utterly without foundation in fact. Maybe the fox is a lazy animal, but a vixen with cubs in an overpopulated (by foxes that is) area can and does take lambs. Further if sick lambs are not available then they will be quite happy to take a healthy one. It need not be abandoned, a hungry vixen is more than capable of out smarting your average ewe.
Whilst a high number of (sheep) killings are by dogs, generally their kills tend to be older animals, mostly because the dog is motivated by the chase. Lamb killings by dogs are comparitively rare and the carcass is almost never removed by a dog. These dogs are only strays in terms of they are loose, but they are not homeless. Following a 'worrier' will inevitably lead back to a home and an owner who will catagorically deny that pooch has been out at all.
Modern farms are by necessity large, it is simply not possible for a farmer to be on station 24 hours a day watching over every animal.
Oh and foxes may only kill for food, but they are not above killing extra when they are about it. The motivation seems to be to come back for the food later, but they don't really know when to stop. Which is partly why a fox in a chicken coop doesn't just kill one bird, even though it may only take one with it.

 

[JakeR]

I dont think that is a good reason for fox hunting IMO. From what i've heard it isnt a very effective way of keeping it down, and is supposedly cruel.

 

[Paganwolf]

Foxes may become lazy in urban enviroments but ive seen them chase down rabbits in the wild that aint lazy i can tell you :shock:

 

[Lurch]

Jake, I wasn't making a case for fox hunting. Just correcting a couple of inaccuracies.

 

[falcon]

Like many others, I'm sure, this subject provokes many angles of thought in my mind and this is the first time I've tried to rationalise them in print.

I've been obsessed with the countryside all my life and bushcraft and its constituent skills seem to draw many strands of interest together. I've done loads of part-time farmwork, bird-watching, hill-walking, rough-shooting and stickmaking, and, like bushcraft, all have provided hours of pleasure out in the countryside doing practical things and observing the riches of nature. I think I've as good an appreciation as anyone as to where food comes from, how it's reared, the economics behind it and the wider issues of the economics of land-use, particularly in the more rural and remote areas. I've never been a foxhunter and have deeply enjoyed observing foxes on many occasions but I do have knowledge of people who have killed foxes and why they say they do it.

Most of my working life has been spent in local government so I've also seen first hand at a reasonably senior level how politicians operate, what motivates them and how political trade-offs can occur, despite ideology. I've also learned that the vast majority of the population is somewhat remote from the processes of the natural world. They think that the idea of catching and killing your own food is acceptable where people HAVE to do it and see people like Ray Mears as really interesting, clever and highly skilled to be able to do what people HAD to do in bygone times. But why should people like ourselves kill and eat rabbits, fish, pheasants or pigeon in this day and age when we don't need to? What are supermarkets for?

As regards foxhunting, I think that there are wider implications for all manner of outdoor activities and my conclusions are basically as follows. Current government action was initiated because it was deemed to be a populist measure which would make a name for the leading politicians involved, reinforce their view of themselves as modernisers in the early 21st century and was ideologically acceptable as well. However, some of the "ideology" can be applied also to parts of shooting, fishing and catching food and this is where my thoughts cross over into civil liberties. While they profess no intention to interfere with other parts of country life, I think this will only last until they see the prospect of gaining a few more votes. In my view, the pragmatist politicians would still be unwilling to tacke the animal killing practices of minority communities even if the law didn't prevent them from doing so.

I think people have to be left to make their coice of pastime in line with their own conscience - if you or I are uncomfortable with foxhunting, don't do it! But beware, as soon as regulations are introduced or expanded to prevent certain activities in one part of the countryside, the closer to some of our own pastimes they become.

I feel better now.......

 

[Lurch]

A good post Falcon, but I would say that as your position is pretty much the same as mine. The hard part about protecting civil liberty is defending peoples right to do something you don't like.

 

[BorderReiver]

A few small points.

Fox hunting is not being banned........hunting the fox with dogs is going.

They can still be trapped,shot,poisoned etc.The numbers will not therefore increase in the country.On the contrary,more shoots will allow the shooting of foxes as it will no longer infuriate the local landowner.

Prey: Foxes take lambs and poultry.They will kill every chicken or other bird in a run if they get in.This I suspect is because we (not us here, obviously :roll: ) have decimated the bunny population with various introduced diseases.We cannot allow nature to sort things out because we have bu$$ered things up too much.