Fox hunting, banned.
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But beware, as soon as regulations are introduced or expanded to prevent certain activities in one part of the countryside, the closer to some of our own pastimes they become.
Well some may say you have selfish reasons for not wanting fox hunting banned, are you afraid it might stop you taking the odd rabbit or pigeon
We cannot have every so-called bushcrafter running around the countryside killing for the sake of killing, can we????
Frogo
Well some may say you have selfish reasons for not wanting fox hunting banned, are you afraid it might stop you taking the odd rabbit or pigeon
We cannot have every so-called bushcrafter running around the countryside killing for the sake of killing, can we????
Frogo
Well said Falcon,
A key part of free society is allowing others to do things you don't like. Me, I can't stand football and it's associated antisocial elements but I have no desire to ban it, leave it for those who enjoy it!
David
A key part of free society is allowing others to do things you don't like. Me, I can't stand football and it's associated antisocial elements but I have no desire to ban it, leave it for those who enjoy it!
David
Frogo said:
Football = mindless thugs terrorizing the opposing supporters and local people after the match (maybe more so in the 80's but there is still hooliganism today) is that more or less antisocial and worthy of a ban than fox hunting?
I think that is what David was getting at.
Bill
Phew that lot took some reading! :claping:
Right to reiterate FOX hunting has not been banned.
HUNTING WITH DOGS HAS BEEN BANNED
Tuesday was a very sad day. The roots of our the great tree of civilization have been cut off.
I hope your sitting comfortably - this could take a while
A long long time ago Man threw the dogs that circled the camp a titbit from a his meal and a friendship was born Man and Dog.
The man fed the dog, the dog helped the man to hunt. Between them they formed a strong bond and a successful hunting team. Neither of them went hungry. The dog had a keen senses, speed beyond that of the man and sharp teeth. The man was cunning and possessed reason, he could make tools and traps and weapons and know where the food would be.He could make fire and shelter and keep them warm and dry through the nights. The dog accepted him as the leader of the pack and his master.
Many generations passed and man full of cunning and always hungry, figured an easier way to hunt. A way to keep up with his pray and the dogs. He befriended the horse. He looked after it and ensured it had enough to eat and drink, and protected it with his clever ways from its predators, the Wolves, bears and Cats. The Horse lived contented, and carried the man many miles as he and the dog chased there quarry.
Thousands of years passed and both Dog and Horse evolved and bred to a thousand different varieties, to perform all the different tasks that man asked them to help with. Fast light horses for hunting on the prairies and deserts, heavy horses for pulling the plough, horses for towing, horses for battle. The dogs got specialized to, small ones for vermin, and going into holes, large ones for big game, fast ones for runners, heavy ones to hold cattle, herders to bring in sheep, lap dogs to keep us warm....
But Every dog and every horse that you have seen, ever met is because of those ancient friends that we enlisted to help us hunt.
Now that thread is broken, we have cut off the root. That link to our forebears, our ancient ancestors and the dogs and horses too.
To me Hunting with a lurcher is the ultimate. One on one against a rabbit or hare. Seems perfectly natural to me. A dog obeying its instinct and a quarry with every chance of escape, and most seemed to. It is survival of the fittest. That is now illegal. if nature can be ?
So is setting a terrier ratting, or working a Dog with a Ferret or a Hawk.
I have read ancient tales of Knights out hunting, chasing Bore and Wolves and Deer. Followed by drinking and feasting.
Tales of Sir Gawain and the Green Knight, and the greatest hunting dog of them all Gelert from Welsh legends.
These were the aristocracy, and its sad that they have been reduced to picking on Foxes. Which are no match for 50 hounds and 20 horses ! But i see the essence and the Spirit from which this has descended and cannot help but feel a sense of loss.
Gone too is the Deer hunt. - which does get eaten, by human or dog. It is still stacked in favour of the pack. But then that was always the idea. I would love to be able to take quarry this way. Not as a good day out but, with respect ( a small pack of 2 or 3), and feast afterwards giving thanks to the animal i had personally taken. Preferable in my book to anything off a supermarket shelf.
Now i will never have the chance to try. I am grateful to the lurcher men that introduced me to this "sport". I was vegetarian at the time ? But they showed me respect for the animal, and morality in taking its life. They procured meat for the table with from there friendship with the dog.
No licence or permit required, no safe to lock up. No vetting from the Police.
Just simple country folk who know how nature works, and employ our most ancient skills. A right now taken away from them. To feed there family with fresh meat.
Sorry to go on. And very sorry for the patronizing opening
But I do feel that my rights and my history have been taken await from me.
I was proud to march on Westminster with my dog, and stand up and be counted for my rights.
My government has ignored me. They may not have got away with it, as europe might actually over rule them in the court of human rights ( be nice to see em do some good !)
But i have lost all faith in our political system. Bring on a revolution - it has to better than this.
cheers
Rich
These Opinions are my own and not those of BCUK
Right to reiterate FOX hunting has not been banned.
HUNTING WITH DOGS HAS BEEN BANNED
Tuesday was a very sad day. The roots of our the great tree of civilization have been cut off.
I hope your sitting comfortably - this could take a while
A long long time ago Man threw the dogs that circled the camp a titbit from a his meal and a friendship was born Man and Dog.
The man fed the dog, the dog helped the man to hunt. Between them they formed a strong bond and a successful hunting team. Neither of them went hungry. The dog had a keen senses, speed beyond that of the man and sharp teeth. The man was cunning and possessed reason, he could make tools and traps and weapons and know where the food would be.He could make fire and shelter and keep them warm and dry through the nights. The dog accepted him as the leader of the pack and his master.
Many generations passed and man full of cunning and always hungry, figured an easier way to hunt. A way to keep up with his pray and the dogs. He befriended the horse. He looked after it and ensured it had enough to eat and drink, and protected it with his clever ways from its predators, the Wolves, bears and Cats. The Horse lived contented, and carried the man many miles as he and the dog chased there quarry.
Thousands of years passed and both Dog and Horse evolved and bred to a thousand different varieties, to perform all the different tasks that man asked them to help with. Fast light horses for hunting on the prairies and deserts, heavy horses for pulling the plough, horses for towing, horses for battle. The dogs got specialized to, small ones for vermin, and going into holes, large ones for big game, fast ones for runners, heavy ones to hold cattle, herders to bring in sheep, lap dogs to keep us warm....
But Every dog and every horse that you have seen, ever met is because of those ancient friends that we enlisted to help us hunt.
Now that thread is broken, we have cut off the root. That link to our forebears, our ancient ancestors and the dogs and horses too.
To me Hunting with a lurcher is the ultimate. One on one against a rabbit or hare. Seems perfectly natural to me. A dog obeying its instinct and a quarry with every chance of escape, and most seemed to. It is survival of the fittest. That is now illegal. if nature can be ?
So is setting a terrier ratting, or working a Dog with a Ferret or a Hawk.
I have read ancient tales of Knights out hunting, chasing Bore and Wolves and Deer. Followed by drinking and feasting.
Tales of Sir Gawain and the Green Knight, and the greatest hunting dog of them all Gelert from Welsh legends.
These were the aristocracy, and its sad that they have been reduced to picking on Foxes. Which are no match for 50 hounds and 20 horses ! But i see the essence and the Spirit from which this has descended and cannot help but feel a sense of loss.
Gone too is the Deer hunt. - which does get eaten, by human or dog. It is still stacked in favour of the pack. But then that was always the idea. I would love to be able to take quarry this way. Not as a good day out but, with respect ( a small pack of 2 or 3), and feast afterwards giving thanks to the animal i had personally taken. Preferable in my book to anything off a supermarket shelf.
Now i will never have the chance to try. I am grateful to the lurcher men that introduced me to this "sport". I was vegetarian at the time ? But they showed me respect for the animal, and morality in taking its life. They procured meat for the table with from there friendship with the dog.
No licence or permit required, no safe to lock up. No vetting from the Police.
Just simple country folk who know how nature works, and employ our most ancient skills. A right now taken away from them. To feed there family with fresh meat.
Sorry to go on. And very sorry for the patronizing opening
But I do feel that my rights and my history have been taken await from me.I was proud to march on Westminster with my dog, and stand up and be counted for my rights.
My government has ignored me. They may not have got away with it, as europe might actually over rule them in the court of human rights ( be nice to see em do some good !)
But i have lost all faith in our political system. Bring on a revolution - it has to better than this.
cheers
Rich
These Opinions are my own and not those of BCUK
Well i,ve read all the posts on this emotive issue and all i can say is i,m glad its finally been banned.As for it taking up parliamentary time when theres other bigger issues to address i.ae the war,well i,m sorry i,ve been waiting a long time for it to come to fruition.
I used to sab. the local hunt back in the 80s and i,ve witnessed foxes being torn apart at close quarters by the hounds and its one of the most distressing sights i,ve ever seen,having to look into the eye of that animal and knowing you do could nothing for it. No animal should suffer the indignity of having to die by said methods.
Lets not forget that the fox is not indigenous to our country,it was brought over from France for the sole purpose of hunting(sorry hunting is the wrong word for it,i should say "SPORT") by the upper classes of the day.
As for the political stance i,ve always felt like this, infact the reason i started to sab. in the first place was because no local MP was interested about it, being from a rural area i was told to just accept it,then when i said i would,nt vote for them the answer was "well its only one lost vote". So obviously i felt disillusioned and thats the reason i started to sab.,it finally felt i was doing something constructive because nobody was listening.
So here we are years down the line and its only now that its being addressed
by the Politicians,whether for there own political gain or not i don,t care,it is in my eyes unjustifiable to kill an animal by said means.
Heres food for thought,just now its still like a bad sore to hunt supporters it,ll take along time to heal but who knows in the future it might be seen,in my eyes anyway,as cruel.Now i know i,ll be shot down in flames for this, but look back when whaling was banned there was alot of people up in arms about it being banned and the cost of jobs etc etc,but ask people about bringing back whaling and i,m sure the majority would say "oh no you can,t do that its cruel", so maybe fox hunting will go the same way, hope so.
People might be thinking to themselves that i,m an "anti" well sorry to disappoint but i,m not,there are extremists on both sides,i for one do not consider myself as an extremist, anarchist or anything else for that matter,i just think common sense should prevail on this issue.
Ray Mears summed it up for me on his new programme Bushcraft, on both episodes he has mentioned that indigenous peoples of the world saw animals as there brethren and, not as something to use as a sporting past time to do what you will with them.
If foxes need controlling then just shoot them,so please call of the dogs after all it is 2004 not Victorian times.
Apologies for the rant
I used to sab. the local hunt back in the 80s and i,ve witnessed foxes being torn apart at close quarters by the hounds and its one of the most distressing sights i,ve ever seen,having to look into the eye of that animal and knowing you do could nothing for it. No animal should suffer the indignity of having to die by said methods.
Lets not forget that the fox is not indigenous to our country,it was brought over from France for the sole purpose of hunting(sorry hunting is the wrong word for it,i should say "SPORT") by the upper classes of the day.
As for the political stance i,ve always felt like this, infact the reason i started to sab. in the first place was because no local MP was interested about it, being from a rural area i was told to just accept it,then when i said i would,nt vote for them the answer was "well its only one lost vote". So obviously i felt disillusioned and thats the reason i started to sab.,it finally felt i was doing something constructive because nobody was listening.
So here we are years down the line and its only now that its being addressed
by the Politicians,whether for there own political gain or not i don,t care,it is in my eyes unjustifiable to kill an animal by said means.
Heres food for thought,just now its still like a bad sore to hunt supporters it,ll take along time to heal but who knows in the future it might be seen,in my eyes anyway,as cruel.Now i know i,ll be shot down in flames for this, but look back when whaling was banned there was alot of people up in arms about it being banned and the cost of jobs etc etc,but ask people about bringing back whaling and i,m sure the majority would say "oh no you can,t do that its cruel", so maybe fox hunting will go the same way, hope so.
People might be thinking to themselves that i,m an "anti" well sorry to disappoint but i,m not,there are extremists on both sides,i for one do not consider myself as an extremist, anarchist or anything else for that matter,i just think common sense should prevail on this issue.
Ray Mears summed it up for me on his new programme Bushcraft, on both episodes he has mentioned that indigenous peoples of the world saw animals as there brethren and, not as something to use as a sporting past time to do what you will with them.
If foxes need controlling then just shoot them,so please call of the dogs after all it is 2004 not Victorian times.
Apologies for the rant
Well I think Rich and Stuart F have put both sides of the argument very clearly and the problem is that neither side will ever agree to the other point of view which is why there could never be a middle way to satisfy all parties.
The upshot is that the decision is now made and we will all have to wait and see if the outcome is as the politicains would have us believe. I think the 1 million people who marched against the Iraq war would still think they were right and we will see if the 1/2 million who were at the countryside march (I was one of them) were right as well. The problem is that in both cases it will be too late to do much about it even if we are proved right.
Bill
The upshot is that the decision is now made and we will all have to wait and see if the outcome is as the politicains would have us believe. I think the 1 million people who marched against the Iraq war would still think they were right and we will see if the 1/2 million who were at the countryside march (I was one of them) were right as well. The problem is that in both cases it will be too late to do much about it even if we are proved right.
Bill
just out of curiosity stuart F where did you get the info that foxes were introduced?
i did a quick search on google and all i could find was that they had been in the uk since the last ice age
Tant
i did a quick search on google and all i could find was that they had been in the uk since the last ice age
Tant
I'm with Stuart F on this totally. Roving Rich your are right perhaps a historic link has been broken beteen man and dog. The hunter gatherer of the past used the dog as it was the most calorie efficent manner of hunting with the technology avaible at the time. hunting with dogs is no longer the most efficent or humane method of controlling an animal population.
The earlier connection between football and fox hunting was out side of this thread. nothing is torn apart in footie. however i would pay good money to watch pro footballers torn apart. perhaps each team could have the dogs set on them for say five mins per goal conceded after 90mins. they 're fit young men some might make a 3-0 score line. once they make it to the tunnel though we can send in the terrier man to drag them back on the pitch for another round.
i think that this thread has probably had its day. The minority on here like myself that is grateful to see the end of hunting with hounds will never convince those that do that it is cruel etc. it has been an interesting debate. :super:
The earlier connection between football and fox hunting was out side of this thread. nothing is torn apart in footie. however i would pay good money to watch pro footballers torn apart. perhaps each team could have the dogs set on them for say five mins per goal conceded after 90mins. they 're fit young men some might make a 3-0 score line. once they make it to the tunnel though we can send in the terrier man to drag them back on the pitch for another round.
i think that this thread has probably had its day. The minority on here like myself that is grateful to see the end of hunting with hounds will never convince those that do that it is cruel etc. it has been an interesting debate. :super:
I think its time to put this one to bed, its been an interesting debate but I think every angle has now been covered. :wave:
Stuart said:
Well, not quite yet.
I haven't had my say yet. The first thing we have to remember is, that we are all a product of our environment and our decisions and beliefs are form by such.
It's going to take me a while to write my thoughts on the subject and it will more that likely be an essay.
But to give you an idea of my stance, this was my reply when asked many thousands of times ' you are coming on the march, aren't you'
My reply,
' I live, work, and contribute to the countryside everyday. I am a countryman, why on earth would I want to march on London, you say its for a our freedom and our livelihoods, well who's freedom and who's livelihoods.........its sure as hell isn't mine!'
The Countryside Alliance has single handedly, destroyed any creditability that the arguement had and the problem is that it is taking down with it the vast majority of it's members but people can be blind and by being a member of the CA and by displaying wonderful stickers in their cars and lorries, they feel like they are a countryman, part of the rural scene, well I have news for them, it doesn't mean anything, nothing. This is a mistake that a lot of people make, this is somehow fast track to being a countryman. Well , it doesn't. It doesn't matter where you are born, or what you do for a living, its what you have in your head and in your heart, that is what makes you a countryman, if there is such a thing.
I will write my bit when I get a spare hour or two!
Jack.
I hope you will at least keep the thread open until Jack's had time to post his thoughts given that he started the ball rolling in the first place. I'm also intrigued to read Jack's definition of a Countryman. I've heard many over the years and I'm sure Jack might provoke another lively response.
Frogo - I don't know whether "every so-called Bushcrafter runs around the countyside and kills for the sake of killing" - I certainly don't - but I believe the ethos would broadly permit you to take what is necessary, in the tradition of the true hunter/gatherer. My point was that the politically correct, who probably don't even want to see this happen because you can buy your battery reared etc. fodder in the supermarket,may well move on to pressing for more regulations which could also impinge on your ability to practise your bushcraft. I guess time will tell.
Frogo - I don't know whether "every so-called Bushcrafter runs around the countyside and kills for the sake of killing" - I certainly don't - but I believe the ethos would broadly permit you to take what is necessary, in the tradition of the true hunter/gatherer. My point was that the politically correct, who probably don't even want to see this happen because you can buy your battery reared etc. fodder in the supermarket,may well move on to pressing for more regulations which could also impinge on your ability to practise your bushcraft. I guess time will tell.
Stuart F.
Appreciate your input, don't worry about ranting I believe everyone should have their say - even if (or perhaps especially if ) they do not agree with me.
One point is a bit strange though, you say yourself that you have 'sabbed' but then say you are not an anti.
How do you figure that then?
Appreciate your input, don't worry about ranting I believe everyone should have their say - even if (or perhaps especially if ) they do not agree with me.
One point is a bit strange though, you say yourself that you have 'sabbed' but then say you are not an anti.
How do you figure that then?
Click snick.
Twang.
Thump.
(sound of 55 gn .223 remington being chambered and fired from my moderated Tikka, and of course the impact!)
Beautiful picture BTW.
Twang.
Thump.
(sound of 55 gn .223 remington being chambered and fired from my moderated Tikka, and of course the impact!)
Beautiful picture BTW.
Wayne said:
Hi all. After reading this thread again in its entirity i would like to withdraw this statement. the majority of posts in this thread agree that fox hunting with hounds is not justifable in todays age. Most of the posts are more unhappy with the method the government used to push the ban through than being pro hunting.
I would remind people though that the act is not yet law and may face many alterations before it becomes law. will the ban actually do what is says on the tin?? we shall see.
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