Fox hunting, banned.

[Jack]

Ok. Yesterday was an historic day for the countryside. Fox hunting was banned.

Is this a good thing or a bad thing.

Will thousands of people lose their jobs, will it create more jobs?

Does it really matter?

What are you thoughts? The usual forum etiquette applys please! :biggthump

 

[Paganwolf]

Hunting foxes with a rifle for pest control purposes is one thing chasing a fox for miles on horse back with a pack of hounds un till it goes to ground then digging it out to run again till exhausted then being ripped to bits by the pack all in the name of sport and a jolly good day out :shock: when you can do the same with a scent marker or a runner :?: you decide..
I do feel for the people who will lose there jobs and way of life but maybe the people involved in organising the hunt with riches and land abound will give these people jobs in their farms and estates ? :?: what do you think :?: I think Fox hunting on horse back was a "Blood Sport" and not a hunting activity, you hunt for food, you hunt to survive, not to see an animal die in terror and fear..

 

[Kath]

It's a tough call!

When I was a child the local hunt used to come through our land wreaking havoc and killing livestock as they went ... I was very anti-hunt because of this then, especially having lost several pets in this way. Times have changed and I know that these days they do respect boundaries and the property of others and livestock etc. So now I would describe myself as neither pro- nor anti- fox hunting, but merely someone who accepts it as part of rural life.

However, I don't believe that they will just stop at banning hunting with dogs! I think it may well be fishing or snaring or lamping next ... and ultimately the end of all our country ways. It feels to me that this government wants people to live to be pre-approved, prescribed, urban lifestyles, buying shrink wrapped food from supermarkets, and the countryside only being seen as one giant recreation area! :?:

(Ultimately, I think it's wrong that country matters are being decided by urbanites in the metropolis! )

 

[Ed]

There have been plans for sometime to ban snaring.. it is still in the works.. its just a matter of time. I don't think fishing will be affected as angling is one of the most popular pastimes in this country.

Ed

 

[Gary]

Well Jack as I said at the WG I dont live in the country and as such I dont think I have the right to say what country people do - I would certainly get the hump if a load of carrot crunchers passed a law banning me parking outside my house or going to the forest on Sundays or having a bbq in the back garden as it al add to the global warming problem.

Where I do feel strongly is that the ban is just another example of the nanny state trying to tell us all how to live our lives - what next? You cant eat pies cos they give you heart attacks or you cant drink beer becasue a few twits still drink and drive?

What really greives me is the fact that in reality (and this may not be the case in hunting) is it the few who dictate to the many - I dont mean the MP's I mean the bleeding heart do gooders who the weak kneed MP's feel they have to bend over backwards to please! (stereo type coming so apologise in advance) It seems to me that in this country today freedom of speech only applies to those who have the time and money and hence the ability to whinge and whine the loadest while the average Joe who is busy working his butt off for minimal wages keeps his mouth shut and gets on with life because he has better things to worry about (like how to make ends meet) rather than getting into a spitting fit because someone called a spade a spade (no racial reference BTW) or because some roughen said pink was for girls!

Live and let live the liberals among us used to say and what a great world it would be if we could - now its live and let live as long as you live in a way that makes me and my smug do goody friends feel we are self important enough to matter and not really just a waste of rations living off daddies hard work and name!

Hear endeth the lesson.

But the point remains the same - next it will be smokers that are targetted and once smoking is banned it will be overweight people then the driver, then single mothers then,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

 

[Rob]

Support/undecidedness/disgust is a very personal thing. I think a lot of it will depend on your background. As such, my opinions on the subject are my own.

I agree that hunting is more of a food thing, and what is happening/has been happening is something quite different. If fox "hunting" was the best and most efficiant way of controlling numbers, there are plenty of urban foxes round here that dont seem to be controlled in that manner.

The governement (or at least the Environment Agency) gets a lot of money from fishing. Soon, you will even need a rod licence for sea fishing (which in my mind is not a bad thing). I enjoy my fishing. If I go after trout, hopefully I retun with some dinner for Mel. But where does catch and return sit????

The fact that a whole day of parliamentary time has been used for this matter (not to mention all of the time spent in past years) upsets me. I think that there were better things to be concentrating on than that. Did anyone count the number of MP's in the house at the time of the debate??? That is another matter.

Should the powers that be ban everything that does harm? Maybe - i dont see them banning the sale and use of tobacco. They get too much money from it.

There are plenty of passtimes that the government have not messed about with, and I am sure that I will fight passionately when they try and move in to my patch. We live in a political world, and it is only a matter of time before someone needs to score a few more points.

 

[Adi007]

What horrifies me is that so much parliamentary time has been devoted to this issue when road and rail is a mess, the environment is being critically damaged and people are dying waiting for hospital treatment. I really would have thought that that there were more pressing issues for the government ...

 

[Kim]

It's a tough one. I agree with the idea that fox hunting had to change, but the way that change is instigated is a problem. When it always comes down to having to 'ban' something because one half of the population/or a government doesn't agree with what the other half is doing smacks of control that doesn't sit easily with me.
We seem always to want the quick fix, to simply stop something from happening (even though I know the argument for fox hunting has been going on forever!). The arguments seem always to be the 'for' and 'against' there is never any compromise, discussion, problem solving. But then I guess you can only have discussion and problem solving is all agree there's a problem and it's quite clear that those protesting for pro-hunting didn't class it as a problem at all. We also reduce things to black and white far too frequently. Whilst I have never agreed with fox hunting I am also aware that a whole livelihood has built up around the sport and to treat the lives and traditions of of those involved too lightly shows a lack of understanding that will do nothing but aggravate, particuarly if those involved do not want those traditions to change.

I agree with the opinion that it's all about points meaning political prizes. When so many people are dying from tobacco related diseases and dying on our roads it's incredible how we place so much onus on fox hunting.

 

[Lurch]

Agree totally with Gary's post.
Those with the 'exhausted fox' argument might like to read the Burns Inquiry.
This was widely expected to find hunting with hounds cruel, but it did not do so.

We should also note that this bill does not just ban fox hunting, it also bans ALL hunting with dogs. This includes things like ratting, lurchers and leaves picking up on a very sticky wicket.

 

[C_Claycomb]

Its funny, I don't have any moral problem with the idea of chasing a fox for miles, or that it gets killed by a pack. On the latter point I have heard pro-hunters calmly state that it is the lead dog that kills it, quickly, and anti-hunters screaming that the fox is ripped apart while alive...dunno :?: . Anyway, I look at how foxes are chased as not that far from what happens in the wild, survival of the fittest, natural predation. Wolves are pretty hard on coyotes in the US, I fail to see the difference.

Its the digging them up when they have gone to ground, or the stopping of holes, or introducing foxes just for the hunt, that makes me boil.

I also know that it is not just the "aristocracy" that ride to hounds. I use that term because for many that is what it is, a wild ride, the hunt part being the excuse for an exhilarating gallop. I abhor the perpetuation of "class" in this country, and the idea is carried on by anyone who thinks that it matters. I suspect that is why this was such a hot topic, its sold as a class struggle thing!

Mainly, I worry that this ban is just one more nail in the coffin of our freedom. There are clearly some minorities that it is politically okay to beat on. Now that hunting is banned, all the people who fought for the ban will move to a new campaign, shooting or fishing being at the top of the list. It may be a harder fight, there are a lot of fishermen out there, but they will try! All these pursuits are divisive, I know fishermen who would be quite happy to see shooting banned, or other types of fishing that don't conform to their ideas. That is how freedoms are lost, a little at a time, each person agreeing to restrictions that only apply to his neighbour.

With all the other problems facing our government I don't know how they have the nerve to give this bill time! We are in a war, here and overseas, our industry and agriculture are in a mess, educations, health care, transport, imigration, emergency services all need desperate attention. All that was forgotten for banning fox hunting. hoohrah for the government

As Kath says, the thing that steams me the most is country issues being decided by urbanites who want the country maintained as a playground

rant over :roll:

 

[Tantalus]

"the unspeakable in pursuit of the inedible" was how Oscar Wilde described fox fox hunting with typical wit

I am sad to see a way of life threatened and sad to see it threatened by people who (in my opinion) do not themselves live in the country, or understand that way of life

As many have already pointed out, nature is cruel

Big fish eats little fish etc etc

Ben Elton had a lovely idea with his "save the anopheles campaign"

My worry like many others is where will it end?

Meanwhile in the real world, i am quite happy to catch gut and skin my supper. If that upsets anyone I apologise , but i cant help it, it's in my genes and I have the dental evidence to prove it.

Tant

 

[Wayne]

i have lived in the country all my life and have no problem with hunting for food where minimal animal suffering results. I am not a veggie although i was for 5 years now i eat freedome food and organic where possible. I am passionately anti fox hunting. i cannot justify terrorising any animal purely for pleasure. i have immersed myself in a 1000 year old martial tradition. does that give me the right to terrorise fox hunters because i can. No it does not. i do not condone violence to people or animals.

hunting arouses strong passions. i dont like the idea of buying a permit to be helicoptered into the wilderness bag a bear and then taken out again. However these permits help provide revenue for conservation. Its a tricky issues that better minds than mine have pondered for many a year.

 

[mr dazzler]

I lived in the countryside as a boy but only ever saw 2 or 3 foxes (one of them shot during a farmers shoot) I saw many foxes in London though-up Camberwell, New Cross, up the old Kent road - I was amazed. One literally ran circles round me one night.
I don't like the idea of being in a gang that chases a fox to its severe end-its not something I'd want to do; BUT some folk do want to follow their conscience, (just like gays, pagans, moslems, christians, witches, etc. do in pursuing their lifestyle) and hunt to hounds. I think the country folk (not just the racial stereotype of toffs) just got totally fed up with being ignored and a few were led to aggression and the police over-reacted
I think your'e right Gary about the nanny state. This ban which is really a hollow divisive "victory" is another step towards the aneamic utopia that the namby pamby people (middle class guilt ridden marxists) seem intent on having us all encased in; NO hunting, NO smoking, NO jokes, NO smoking, NO national pride, NO competetive sports, NO acheivement, NO humour, NO strong opinions, NO respect, NO discipline, NO criticism of anything we say is important, etc etc. What next?? Oh God Jack-NO tree-felling, NO shooting, NO fishing, NO farting, NO questions, NO adventure, NO fun, NO letup.

Mind you I think it needs to be said-where was support from the countryside people when Thatcher closed down pits and factories in the early stages of the globalist revolution that has poisoned our country so severely????

Its sad that farmers who may come from a 4th or 5th generation farming family now find it unfeasible to produce food and have to make money from B&B guesthouse instead or quad bikes or pet shows or farming museums. It'll be harder still now, but farmers are resourceful people and stand a better chance of surviving than most. Good luck to them.

 

[Paganwolf]

I ferret, have hunted hare with lurchers,whippets and greyhounds,i shoot and lamp and i have had and hunted(stress the word "Hunt") with birds of prey(i eat what i catch!), ive also seen an anti hunt video of the kill at a fox hunt and believe my it would turn your stomach,it did mine and also haunted me for a long time (all that cr*p about a quick n painless death yeah right), im not saying its right these poncy city gits (most of which do live in their own bubble in the country side,living in and living country life is different also) should ban everything due to the do-gooders and anti hunt fanatics (there is a difference between blood sport and hunting) pressure and "get votes campains" e.c.t ,its just not on you have to establish the difference between "hunting" and "blood sport" hunting is a way of life and survival, blood sport is a bit of fun on a saturday to some people! :?: ? perspective time if a group of yobs left a pub and on the way home kicked a fox half to death then got their bull terrier to kill it and the local old granny video'd it from her bedroom they would all over the papers and the biggest Bas**rds under the sun the next day, what is the difference? :?: class n money! this is an age old arguement which can go on for ever and ever, at the end of the day each of us decides what is right and what is wrong, personal opinion, and opinions are like ar.... well you know the rest

 

[tomtom]

it will be a shame if things like Point to Point dissapear as a result though!

 

[bushwacker bob]

I live in the heart of HH Hunt country and my daughter made a crap living for a few years as a groom to the hunt. She said that the horses suffer more than the dogs or the fox.They regularly came back with damaged tendons from galloping over plough and cut legs and bellies from jumping through hedges. It probably ruins more steeple chasers than it creates and they would be better trained over a known course with less danger.
The hunt also causes more damage to agriculture than the fox as the course it takes is random and depends on the fox.
The arguement that packs will be destroyed is a bit thin too as thousands of puppies that dont make the selection are destroyed annually,as the hunt insists they cant be trained as domestic pets.
fox hunting can be replaced very easily by draghunting.
Foxes are better controled by shooting as the hunt dont account for half as many as the local gamekeeper.
On balance I think a ban is a good idea :shock:

 

[Squidders]

Errr... I'm a city dweller!

Like most countries, 90% of the population lives and works in a city, Whether I agree or not with the ban specifically, in a democracy the majority vote will win. So what you're proposing is a tribal system for governing the whole country? So next time the proverbial hits the fan and the farmers whine to the government for money what then? Also, my parents live in rural Wales and all the "poor old farmers" drive about in nice Range Rovers :yikes:

Also, just because people like to whine about our liberty being taken away, doesn't make anything happen. When was the last time any of us actually did anything about anything? We do have time, we all have time... Next time the fire is ticking along nicely, you're all snug in your hammock and you are at one with your relaxation... think about how much time you don't have because you're too busy to make a difference.

And back on topic, yes, in nature predators hunt prey... predators also give up easily (apart from wolves who seem to be completely bloody minded for some reason ) In this country there isn't a single predator that would be willing to chase its prey for over an hour on a Sunday morning. Especially one that's just been filled with tea and biscuits. And it's not just the fox that loses out... no no no, because of the nature of the chase lots of horses get injured and as a result get terminated with extreme prejudice and the hounds are more often that not, kept in appalling conditions.

I think the only reason this is a debate at all is because nobody owns the fox and the fox isn't endangered. If 1% of the population of the UK thought it would be a jolly good idea to hunt your pet dog/cat/whatever each Sunday morning I don't think the jolly good idea would last very long.

Sorry about the rant but if hunting was hunting, the fox would be eaten or it would be a "catch and release" fox hunt... if it's not one of those, it's a fox killing.

Joe

 

[Oakleaf]

Seems to have been a useful precedent of setting out whether poster is town/ country etc. Though arguable that 99% of forum members are 'country' from their interest rather than place of domicile!

I live in the country, but was born at proverbial ' foot o' cotton mill'. Hence conviction that mindset is the key, not where your house is.

I shoot - mostly rifle shooting linked to Deer Stalking. I have shot a few foxes.

Fox hunters argue that a fox caught by the hounds is killed near instantly - whilst there is a pack, only one or two dogs will effect the kill. Often by a bite to the throat. Once caught, no fox is wounded.

The numbers taken are minute compared to those shot by keepers etc up and down the country. The shooting community has purged the idiotic practise of having a pop at a fox with bird shot on a pheasant drive. I would imagine most are taken with centre fire rifles. With expanding ammunition, a centre hit is very destructive and as near instantaneous death as can be engineered. However, regardless of the minimal number, some will be wounded and not recovered.

I think respect of all living things is the essential element that gets over looked. You can respect something, yet still take life.

The key aspect, for me, is that the politicians have dressed this up as an Animal Welfare issue. It is patently not. On Radio 4 earlier in the week a Government Minister finally admitted ( to my hearing anyway ) that this was about driving out the Aristocracy and evening things up.

The statements made by politicians have consisted of half truths, lies and sheer spin. When thwarted by the DEMOCRATIC PROCESS of this country - one evolved over hundreds of years and tempered by Civil War. One used as a blue-print and model for free countries - these publicly elected individuals twisted and abused that process to railroad through the legislation they want. That is a very dangerous state of play for all of us.

Those members of parliament were put there by us. I accept that many of their constituents pressed for a ban etc, but debate did not come into this. X number of MPs wanted this sport banned, they were not interested in debate. When the Parliamentary process worked and the ill tempered legislation was passed upward, the Lords did their duty and knocked it back. That seemed to engender pewse rage in OUR elected representatives.

Regardless of the topic, I get extremely nervous when democratically elected people start talking about 'THEIR' will being thwarted.

The Parliament Act was not envisaged to be used in the way now threatened by the Government.

We may not all shoot. We may not all eat meat. We may have differing views on egalitarinism ( I give up try to get spelling right! ), we may have had extremely unpleasant experiences of the hunt scene and its adherants. But the way that this legislation has been processed has removed democratic freedom from each and every one of us. It sets a precedent that could haunt us all.

It is a large step down the road toward a state where any 'unorthodox' activity is viewed dimly and as antisocial. Quite a number of you are going to the Hunter Course ( if Buckshot can get his beast in time ): ). Many people in this country will look on the course content with revulsion.

Revulsion often comes from a lack of understanding and is a short step to fear. We live in a world where it seems to be a general trend for everyone to fear things - and look for Governments to protect us from said fear. That is probably the greatest antithesis to the Bushcraft philosophy centred around self - reliance.

Anyone seen the George Lucas film THX1138? I am greatly perturbed that we have taken another step down the path to that fantasy being a blue print.

For me the rights and wrongs of the subject matter have faded under the gravity of the issues raised by the manner in which government has implemented the legislation.

Rant ends! :roll:

 

[C_Claycomb]

Having read some of the posts here I have been having a bit of a re-think. Lots of very eloquent thoughts, and many points that I had not thought about.

 

[Buckshot]

I agree what a lot of people have said.

Banning something removes the need for dialogue. That in itself is a problem, through talking things are resolved.

I think this is more about classism than anything else. The perception of the public is it’s only toffs that fox hunt, this is not the case. Hunts have changed in recent years, perhaps not enough but no red coats are worn now.

It would appear that a government that promised to protect the minorities meant specific approved minorities – not all of them.

I don’t hunt, I have no interest in hunting.
I shoot, so I am involved in ‘Fieldsports’. As such I feel I need to stand up and be counted along side those that hunt, fish, shoot or whatever because as people have said before, divided we fall. That’s why I marched through London along with 400,000 others.
The banning of handguns has proved this. It’s done nothing for public safety as the government said it would and the rifle shooters just sat back and sighed a relief that it wasn’t them – bad idea. Who’s next in line do you think?

If the government are clever (which is a contradiction in terms I know) they’ll allow a loophole as happened (by luck or design) in Scotland. That way they’ll be able to hold their head up and the country folk will still continue to live.

Everyone else has made all the other points I wanted to make except thanks for the vote of confidence Oakleaf…

That’s my thoughts on it anyway