Flour to stop bleeding??

[BorderReiver]

The main point that comes out of this thread is that having attended one first aid course does not make you an expert on haemostasis, or any other feature of major trauma. The professionals who have contributed, are just that, professionals, with years of study, training and experience behind them.

Well meaning amateurs can be lethal in serious cases; the best chance for the casualty is to get professional help with the absolute minimum of delay.

Having a wannabe trying out the kit he carries "for an emergency just like this", could cause a fatal delay.

 

[Ian S]

Hi Toddy

I can see the temptation though if someone says, "Oh this'll work, and it'll do it really quickly "

I hope that you don't mind me replying to your post, but this is the problem in a nutshell.

I have to acknowledge that if I go beyond my competence, there's a danger that I could seriously harm another person, allbeit with the best of intentions (something like 'here, take a couple of aspirin, oh, you're allergic to aspirin and your ulcer is playing up and now it has started to bleed, oops').

That's why I carry a decent-sized, but basic, first aid kit but with no medicines, proprietory or otherwise. I don't (knowingly) carry stuff that could cause harm if I use it, or indeed if some well meaning but completely untrained person uses it (OK, subject to tying a bandage too tight....).

This is the minefield with first aid,which is why I love Genty's comment from page 1:

always think "What is the least I need to do?" rather than "What is the most I can do?

Cheers

 

[sapper1]

I'd like to refer everyone to this thread

http://www.bushcraftuk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=51022

And in particular post number 50 .

 

[Toddy]

Hi Toddy



I hope that you don't mind me replying to your post, but this is the problem in a nutshell.

I have to acknowledge that if I go beyond my competence, there's a danger that I could seriously harm another person, allbeit with the best of intentions (something like 'here, take a couple of aspirin, oh, you're allergic to aspirin and your ulcer is playing up and now it has started to bleed, oops').

That's why I carry a decent-sized, but basic, first aid kit but with no medicines, proprietory or otherwise. I don't (knowingly) carry stuff that could cause harm if I use it, or indeed if some well meaning but completely untrained person uses it (OK, subject to tying a bandage too tight....).

This is the minefield with first aid,which is why I love Genty's comment from page 1:



Cheers

Ian I'm not disagreeing with you, but in the context of a bleeding cut or graze, I can see why someone might try the stuff, whether it be fungus, flour or quikclot. That's just humanity. Thankfully we have more resources than in the past as well as a wider knowledge.
I fully agreed with Genty's comment, I think it very appropriate.
Would I act outwith my training and competence ? No. I'm of the do no harm school of thought.
Would I act when it was needed and do so without causing any further damage ? Yes.
Would I use folk medicine within my knowledge? Yes.

I don't think one could expect more than that, do you?

I do carry a decent first aid kit, but I also carry proprietary drugs. From aspirin to ibuprofen, from paracetamol to the stuff to stop the squits.
Will I use them ? Yes.
Would I give them to someone else if asked and it was safely appropriate ? Yes, if they were in a position to take them for themselves.

Time and Place and Incident matters as much as the kit we carry.

Toddy

 

[BOD]

Ian I'm not disagreeing with you, but in the context of a bleeding cut or graze, I can see why someone might try the stuff, whether it be fungus, flour or quikclot. That's just humanity. ..Would I use folk medicine within my knowledge? Yes.
..........
Toddy

I am happy to try aboriginal medicine most times. Much more interesting than bandaids and often better.

 

[lannyman8]

Martyn, I know you keep saying IYO dont use quick clot, but you do not say anything about Hem Con which is basicly a gause bandage with a covering, you also said you should just pack a wound and then bandage and add pressure........

my question is this, as Hem Con is basicly a bandage why would you not use it in this type of open wound, as the packing/gause......it also has no real training if you can read that is, as you just use it as a gause putting the correct side into the wound.........

thanks....

regards....

chris........................

 

[BorderReiver]

Martyn, I know you keep saying IYO dont use quick clot, but you do not say anything about Hem Con which is basicly a gause bandage with a covering, you also said you should just pack a wound and then bandage and add pressure........

my question is this, as Hem Con is basicly a bandage why would you not use it in this type of open wound, as the packing/gause......it also has no real training if you can read that is, as you just use it as a gause putting the correct side into the wound.........

thanks....

regards....

chris........................

From the manufacturers site:

The HemCon Bandage provides the medical professional a solution that is quick-acting, natural, localized and effective.

(My colouring)

 

[lannyman8]

so does that mean you would not use it then, i mean i know it may say MEDICAL PROFESSIONAL but it is just a bandage, and im not saying you should just go buy it and use it, that would be wrong and with no training a bit silly........

im just interested on the view of others is all.......

thanks.

chris.....................

 

[Martyn]

Chris, HemCon and Celox are basically exactly the same product. They both use a type of polysaccharide (think caster sugar) impregnated into their products. The idea is that the sugar will act as a haemostatic agent by causing platelet aggregation at the wound site and any product absorbed into the wound will be broken down into theoretically harmless mono sugars and either be used or excreted. They are both far less harmful than QuikClot, no question. However, they are designed to promote fast clotting of a wound when the cas, or rather the medic is under duress. The last thing an army medic wants to be doing is spending 20 minutes applying pressure to a wound in the middle of a firefight. What we dont know, is how making a sugary goop out of the wound will affect the healing process. The human body is designed to heal itself and it does this exceptionally well with no powders or sugars added. I'll throw it back at you. Under normal civilian conditions, why would you add anything to a wound?

Best practice is always going to be minimalist - adding the absolute minimum of any drug, potion or product to a person in order to facilitate healing. Anything you add - anything at all - is basically going to interfere with the body's own natural clotting and healing mechanism - and should therefore be clinically justified. As I've said before, 99.9% of all bleeds can be stopped with the application of gauze, pressure and elevation if possible. It's easy, cheap and safe.

Genty's quote is spot on...

always think "What is the least I need to do?" rather than "What is the most I can do?

The army (and in some extreme cases such as mountain rescue perhaps), have overriding considerations. They have to get out of dodge fast, or get the cas back into the fight fast. Under those circumstances, tourniquets, Colox, HemCon, or even QuikClot are reasonable solutions and get the job done, but in almost all circumstances, they are not the best solutions, they are quick solutions.

 

[kiltedpict]

....... but in almost all circumstances, they are not the best solutions, they are quick solutions.

I've been following this thread with interest... Not done a first aid course for many years (ex Red Cross trainer) but it have worked in Intensive Care for 12+ years and never really heard of these products.

I can see they have their place, but the quote above sums it up for me.

ATB

KP

 

[lannyman8]

Chris, HemCon and Celox are basically exactly the same product. They both use a type of polysaccharide (think caster sugar) impregnated into their products. The idea is that the sugar will act as a haemostatic agent by causing platelet aggregation at the wound site and any product absorbed into the wound will be broken down into theoretically harmless mono sugars and either be used or excreted. They are both far less harmful than QuikClot, no question. However, they are designed to promote fast clotting of a wound when the cas, or rather the medic is under duress. The last thing an army medic wants to be doing is spending 20 minutes applying pressure to a wound in the middle of a firefight. What we dont know, is how making a sugary goop out of the wound will affect the healing process. The human body is designed to heal itself and it does this exceptionally well with no powders or sugars added. I'll throw it back at you. Under normal civilian conditions, why would you add anything to a wound?

Best practice is always going to be minimalist - adding the absolute minimum of any drug, potion or product to a person in order to facilitate healing. Anything you add - anything at all - is basically going to interfere with the body's own natural clotting and healing mechanism - and should therefore be clinically justified. As I've said before, 99.9% of all bleeds can be stopped with the application of gauze, pressure and elevation if possible. It's easy, cheap and safe.

Genty's quote is spot on...



The army (and in some extreme cases such as mountain rescue perhaps), have overriding considerations. They have to get out of dodge fast, or get the cas back into the fight fast. Under those circumstances, tourniquets, Colox, HemCon, or even QuikClot are reasonable solutions and get the job done, but in almost all circumstances, they are not the best solutions, they are quick solutions.

ok Martyn, i did not realise it was the same basic product, MY BAD!!!!!!!! and i now see exactly what you mean now its been put in laymans turms..... i have used Hem Con when in Afghanistan, it was a shrap wound from an old Russian grenade, i know because i see it land and roll......the blokes leg was quite bad but having been draged 100m it was full of dust, sand and all sorts of crap, the blood did get rid of alot of it though, smashed some Hem Con in and compresion bandage over the top, jobs a fish......

i must also admit i carry it for my self, the only reason is if im miles from no where and i have a blond moment with the axe, its as sharp as my knife so could do some damage real easy.....

anyway thanks for clearing that up mate.........

regards....

chris............................

 

[Rumi]

I am an advanced level first aider and have to use these skills on a near daily basis in my work place, mainly for minor injuries, occasionally I do have to deal with more serious injuries occasionally and they are usually injuries caused by broken bottles or other such weapons. However I am not in a battle zone so there isn't that other pressure.

My wife is a medical herbalist and between us we have developed a type of field medicine/first aid using plants and other natural materials. There are tree barks and herbal perenials which will stop bleeding because they are both astringent and contain active constituents which are vassal constrictors. The tree barks are also sterile.

I think some times first aiders seem to forget that there is no hurry when dealing with injuries, there is nothing wrong with holding a dressing on a large wound, applying pressure for more than 10-15 minutes, or if appropriate until the ambulance comes or help arrives.

Unless you are in a high pressure situation, ordinary, basic first aid is fine, if its familly and yourself, do what you like. I have never heard of putting flour on a wound nor would I recommend it.

 

[durulz]

I have never heard of putting flour on a wound nor would I recommend it.

What if it's wholemeal? That's meant to be good for you.

 

[lannyman8]

What if it's wholemeal? That's meant to be good for you.

awesome.............RAOTFLMAO>>>>>>>>>>>>>

 

[knifefan]

Found this!!!

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/QUIKCLOT-1st-..._Equipment_Instruments_ET&hash=item5d2ad14025