Flour to stop bleeding??

[lannyman8]

just so you know toddy i asked this question when i did my training with Hem-Con and it is safe to use on people who are allergic to fish......

i dont know how that works but im reasured it is SAFE........

regards...

chris.................................................................

 

[Toddy]

Thanks Chris

I went looking after I'd typed my initial response, because I know I'm not alone with this blasted allergy and I'd hate to get it wrong on someone.

It was reassuring to read that they say no reactions and are prepared to say so openly on their site. That kind of bodes well for the stuff

*********

m. durston, I was very badly scalded as a child over both thighs, with splashes on my knee and lower leg.
My Mum phoned the Doctor and he said to soak clean ironed linen teatowels in cold milk, and wrap my legs in them.
I watched my skin puff up in blisters like those potato puff things and I mind bawling my eyes out while my Dad tried to comfort me.
The Doctor came by the next day and said just to keep the milk bandages on me.
I have no scars even though the skin sloughed off and left wet oozing tissues for days.
I healed within a month and unless someone knew the burns were there, they wouldn't see anything amiss; the skin doesn't tan evenly though.

I'm not recommending milk soaked linen for scalds, just pointing out that using what's at hand has a long provenance. Maybe simply because it was all folks had.

cheers,
Toddy

 

[Sniper]

To the best of my knowledge "Celox" is for use by emergency teams such as paramedics, air ambulance crews and military at the moment. It is not for general use. You will find it in SP Services catalogue but must remember that they sell predominantly to the Ambulance and emergency services. A quick point also to bear in mind that no training for the layperson will have this stuff in the programme so I would not advise using it until it does and you have been trained in it's use. There are some really good research results from tests done (mainly in the US) so it will only be a matter of time before it becomes widely recognised as a first aid material IMHO.
As for flour I would strongly recommend that you do not introduce any substance into a wound, Pressure, Elevation, Sterile dressing, and 999 for a severe bleed is still the best course of action.

 

[Genty]

Sorry to jump in so late on this thread. I only pop in to Bushcraft UK from time to time but was really keen to see a dedicated First Aid Sub-Forum. Good work.


I'l keep it quick and simple.

Don't. Just don't.

Never put anything into a wound unless it is a) a recognised treatment and b) you have the knowledge, skills and experience to apply it.

If we are talking about heamostats (such as Quick-clot, Hem-Com or Celox) they are all different ant work in different ways. If you are going to use one of them, go for Quik-clot ACS. It generates lower temperatures (but still as much a s 40oc) and is conveninet to use. But find out how to use it appropriately first.

Never put anything else into a wound....flour, sugar etc. You are introducing dirt. Box fresh talc may be clean but it is not sterile or aseptic.

Aside from that, when the casualty gets to hospital the wound will need to be cleaned. Anything that can't be flushed out will have to be cut away. Obviously the least amount of debridement needed the better.

With burns this is doubly true. Cling Film has been advocated for a long while as the best thing to put on wounds. Cling film does not respond that well to living in the bottom of a rucksack for a couple of years although it is cheap and plentiful. Alternative dressings could be non adherent dressings or Tegaderm (great stuff!).

The only thing you could put on would be Water-Jel, Hydrosheild or Burnshield. All of which are water based meaning they can be washed off when the casualty gets to hospital. Remember to send the packaging to hospital with the casualty so the staff know what has been put on in case they are not familiar with the particular brand. If you star putting on butter or other 'old wives tales' (I have even heard someone recommending WD40 for burns!) which are oily or greasy, they act as a barrier to anything the hospital would want to apply and so the wound would need deep cleaning which is both painful and potentially damaging to tissue.

Direct pressure for wounds (even the most serious bleeds) and cold water for burns have been prescribred for eons. Lots of things change in First Aud every year but these are constants. Why? Because they work.

There are lots of gucci kit and specialist dressings that can be bought on the net but always think "What is the least I need to do?" rather than "What is the most I can do?"

Hope this helps.

 

[Ian S]

Hi Gentry

There are lots of gucci kit and specialist dressings that can be bought on the net but always think "What is the least I need to do?" rather than "What is the most I can do?"

That's one of the finest rules I have ever heard for first aid.

 

[Toddy]

I was just thinking the same thing

I think we'll see about adding that to the guidelines

cheers,
Toddy

 

[BOD]

Err. You are not introducing flour, cayenne pepper etc into the wound but providing an clotting key/matrix to the blood that has come out of the wound and helping it to clot.

I would not get too paranoid about these substances as they have been used for centuries. Every thing doesn't have to be sterile just clean.

That said its more likely that a FAD will be at hand than a jar of tumeric or whatever so KISS is the way to go

 

[John Fenna]

Very good advice Adam...
But
If I was in the middle of preparing my dinner and nicked a finger with a knife then I would be quite happy to use flour etc to stop the claret dripping into my short-crust or bannock mix....:yikes:
Not that I am likely to be too bothered realy, nor likely to be that careless in the first place

When food is in prospect I aint got time to clean up, dry up and get the plasters out

If I come across some poor soul with a major wound I will fall back on my training (or go shopping for chicken legs {sorry - in joke}) that way if things go to pot and they try sueing me I can always blame my trainer and get him sued!

In the last resort after TEOTWAWKI I might try pouring the McDougals into a wound - but only if I had good stocks! Rather they die of their injuries than I die of starvation!

 

[BorderReiver]

Genty has it spot on.

Carry a proper first aid kit and know how to use it.

If the injury is serious, pressure; mobile 'phone; give accurate location. Don't waste time pratting about with folk remedies.

 

[Martyn]

Hi
just finished a wilderness first aid course two weeks ago and quick clot was mentioned for major bleeding..apparently paramedics in london and the south coast are now using
quick clot or celox...

Really?

Niether QuikClot or Celox are licensed for use in the NHS, neither of them are listed in the British National Formulary, they are not recommended by by the National Institute for Clinical Excellence and they are not listed on the National Electronic Library for Medicines. They are licensed for use by the UK armed services only ...and they are available commercially. But if paramedics are using an unlicensed product in their professional practice (presumably products they have purchased themselves), they are sticking their backsides out in a sling. They will have no legal backup if something goes wrong, their trusts will disown them ...and will probably sack them ...and in legal terms at least, they might as well be putting an old cow-pat on the wound for how much support they will get from the profession.

So why isnt it licensed in the UK yet? Because it doesnt need to be and because the risks outweigh the benefits for civvi medicine. QuikClot, or rather QuikStop has been used by vets for years. It's nothing new, but it has always had problems associated with it. But then pigs and sheep dont tend to sue you, so it's not a big issue, and if you loose a few ...well we can live with that. It was deemed appropriate for battlefield medicine, because the pressures of getting a quick fix under adverse conditions, merits the risks. A quick fix under adverse conditions, is rarely if ever needed under normal, UK civilian first aid circumstances, so the NHS would be taking on all of the risks with none of the justification. That kind of practice went out of fashion with Thalidamide. It isnt just a question of stopping the bleeding, it's what happens a week, 6 months or a year later. Yes it has been used with success in battlefield conditions. It stops beeding fast. Nobody is debating that. But what of it's side-effects, complications and long term use? Did you know if it's used on an open abdomen, the surgeon has to spill out all the intestines and wash them down? Not everyone lives through something like that. These products are novel and experimental, with little or no long term feedback as yet. But if our government thinks it's OK for soldiers, then it must be OK for you right? Well maybe, but dont forget we are talking about soldiers here ...and we all know what enormous value our government places on the heath and well-being (sic)? I'm sure they would never experiment with their health ...but just in case ...wait till it gets licensed for civilian use eh?

 

[Genty]

Interesting info Martyn, thanks.

 

[Martyn]

Interesting info Martyn, thanks.

I totally agree with your direct pressure comment BTW. In 99.9% of circumstances, there is no need for any kind of styptic, almost all bleeds can be stopped with packing and pressure and the 0.1% that cant, are usually fatal no matter what you do. IMO, unless you have a pressing need to clear yourself and your casualty from incoming fire, then QuikClot should be left with the vets and soldiers.

 

[sapper1]

I totally agree with your direct pressure comment BTW. In 99.9% of circumstances, there is no need for any kind of styptic, almost all bleeds can be stopped with packing and pressure and the 0.1% that cant, are usually fatal no matter what you do. IMO, unless you have a pressing need to clear yourself and your casualty from incoming fire, then QuikClot should be left with the vets and soldiers.

Just to add to what Martyn says.
I have seen some one panicking with a bleeding casualty because they had no dressing to put on a nasty cut.I told him to use his jumper or coat.
If you have a casualty with a nasty bleed and don't have any dressings then use thier clothes,cut them up if you need to.Remember a dressing of any kind is better than no dressing at all.
Get that dressing on and apply pressure.,it's the safest thing to do.

 

[hoppinmad]

Really?

Niether QuikClot or Celox are licensed for use in the NHS, neither of them are listed in the British National Formulary, they are not recommended by by the National Institute for Clinical Excellence and they are not listed on the National Electronic Library for Medicines. They are licensed for use by the UK armed services only ...and they are available commercially. But if paramedics are using an unlicensed product in their professional practice (presumably products they have purchased themselves), they are sticking their backsides out in a sling. They will have no legal backup if something goes wrong, their trusts will disown them ...and will probably sack them ...and in legal terms at least, they might as well be putting an old cow-pat on the wound for how much support they will get from the profession.

So why isnt it licensed in the UK yet? Because it doesnt need to be and because the risks outweigh the benefits for civvi medicine. QuikClot, or rather QuikStop has been used by vets for years. It's nothing new, but it has always had problems associated with it. But then pigs and sheep dont tend to sue you, so it's not a big issue, and if you loose a few ...well we can live with that. It was deemed appropriate for battlefield medicine, because the pressures of getting a quick fix under adverse conditions, merits the risks. A quick fix under adverse conditions, is rarely if ever needed under normal, UK civilian first aid circumstances, so the NHS would be taking on all of the risks with none of the justification. That kind of practice went out of fashion with Thalidamide. It isnt just a question of stopping the bleeding, it's what happens a week, 6 months or a year later. Yes it has been used with success in battlefield conditions. It stops beeding fast. Nobody is debating that. But what of it's side-effects, complications and long term use? Did you know if it's used on an open abdomen, the surgeon has to spill out all the intestines and wash them down? Not everyone lives through something like that. These products are novel and experimental, with little or no long term feedback as yet. But if our government thinks it's OK for soldiers, then it must be OK for you right? Well maybe, but dont forget we are talking about soldiers here ...and we all know what enormous value our government places on the heath and well-being (sic)? I'm sure they would never experiment with their health ...but just in case ...wait till it gets licensed for civilian use eh?

"Niether QuikClot or Celox are licensed for use in the NHS"
Really...Celox 15g NHS Supply No ELS405 date added to catalogue 23/09/2010

“neither of them are listed in the British National Formulary”
Why on earth would you think they would be listed in the BNF..it does not even list field dressings and i could not be bothered to search for cow pats

"are not recommended by the National Institute for Clinical Excellence"
NICE makes no mention of them

"They are licensed for use by the UK armed services only"
Saturday 11th April 2009, Edale Mountain Rescue Team

"and they are available commercially"
http://www.stjohnsupplies.co.uk/products/default.asp?productId=F90108


"Did you know if it's used on an open abdomen, the surgeon has to spill out all the intestines and wash them down? Not everyone lives through something like that."
Any surgeon worth his salt would clean an abdominal or any other wound

"But if our government thinks it's OK for soldiers, then it must be OK for you right?"
Thats right! Like I said, it was covered on a first aid course

"...wait till it gets licensed for civilian use eh?"
I will use what I have been trainned to use..no more and
certainly no less..you need to get out of the woods and into the real world

 

[Martyn]

I will use what I have been trainned to use..no more and
certainly no less..you need to get out of the woods and into the real world

Great just what the world needs, another chest puffing first aider fresh off a course.

 

[hoppinmad]

Great just what the world needs, another chest puffing first aider fresh off a course.

Thats Right, for you information i have been active in first aid for over 35 years and like i said I will use what i have been trainned to use no more and no less..and I certainly would not take advice from someone who is clearly ill informed

 

[Martyn]

Thats Right, for you information i have been active in first aid for over 35 years and like i said I will use what i have been trained to use no more and no less..and I certainly would not take advice from someone who is clearly ill informed

Well my misinformation seems to centre around it being available in the NHS supply catalogue since September - scuse me for being out of date, I didnt exactly have it on backorder. With regard to when and if you should use it, nothing has changed and if we are on the subject of chest puffing Mr. 35 years in first aid, how many femoral bleeds have you, that's you personally, ...actually stopped?

Go wag your finger at someone who is impressed.

 

[hoppinmad]

Well my misinformation seems to centre around it being available in the NHS supply catalogue since September - scuse me for being out of date, I didnt exactly have it on backorder. With regard to when and if you should use it, nothing has changed and if we are on the subject of chest puffing Mr. 35 years in first aid, how many femoral bleeds have you, that's you personally, ...actually stopped?

Go wag your finger at someone who is impressed.

Hehehehe

 

[Martyn]

On a serious note ...and I am very curious to know, what exactly is your training and under exactly what circumstances have you been advised to use haemostatic agents?

 

[Sniper]

Calm down lads take a breath, as it's use is not covered by any legitimate first aid course in the country it can't be used by anyone other than emergency/military services as already rightly stated. Any first aid trainer who advocates or explains it's use is contravening his/her remit and can be disciplined by any organisation they are working for or / on behalf of. Advice from all major first aid training providers is quite simply it cannot and should not be used end of story. Let's not fall out over something which is, at the end of the day, an academic arguement