Flour to stop bleeding??

[Martyn]

And if you are a day and a half into the bush and no LP?

Different countries, different circumstances. Britain is a country 700 miles long by 150 miles wide and a population of 65 million. There aren't many places here where you're not in shouting distance from help and something like 99% mobile phone coverage.

Australia is very different ...as is anywhere with a vast expanse of real wilderness. The isolation justifies the risks, in much the same way as battle justifies the risks. You're just as likely to make a bad call, but being so far from help, you dont have much choice.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B2XLoQ1xYB0

 

[ScotchDave]

And if you are a day and a half into the bush and no LP?

This is what signalling devices, satellite phones and telling someone where you'll be/when you'll be back are for!

Dave

 

[BOD]

...anywhere with a vast expanse of real wilderness. The isolation justifies the risks, in much the same way as battle justifies the risks. You're just as likely to make a bad call, but being so far from help, you dont have much choice.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B2XLoQ1xYB0

Quite true Martyn,

That is one of my nightmare scenarios - the seriously injured and the risk of the evacuation.

Thank God it has never happened yet.

 

[Robbi]

not one of you have mentioned keeping the patient warm, covering with coats, blankets, sleeping bags etc ......why is that ?

 

[sapper1]

Too busy scoring points off each other probably.

 

[Robbi]

spot on mate

 

[Genty]

I'm not going to say YES you can or NO you can't use it because it is not as simple as that.

... it's use is not covered by any legitimate first aid course in the country it can't be used by anyone other than emergency/military services as already rightly stated. Any first aid trainer who advocates or explains it's use is contravening his/her remit and can be disciplined by any organisation they are working for or / on behalf of. Advice from all major first aid training providers is quite simply it cannot and should not be used end of story....

Not quite true.

The vast majority of training organisations only deliver urban based first aid protocols; FAW, EFAW, Paediatric First Aid and a few do Sport First Aid. As all of these are 1) based on an urban environment and 2) with no prior knowledge/experience needed, Haemostats are not included. And rightly so. I don't include them on our urban / FAW courses as they are not on the syllabus and for me to do so would be wrong.

On our REC Advanced and Expedition courses as well as on one of our In House certificated course we talk about Haemostats and tourniquets. Becuase at these levels and contextual settings it is appropriate content. And many other Remote First Aid trainers do the same.

As a trainer for REC, if I were to instruct on something (which is different to discussing!) beyond the remit for that course or provide inaccurate or false information I could indeed be struck off the trainers list. 90% of our work goes through REC so I am in no rush to do this. If I do any of that on one of our In-House and something untward were to happen following a candidate acting on my instruction I would probably loose my business...which could consequently mean my house. So you see, it is not illegal or cavalier to discuss these things as we have a vested interest in delivering appropriate training to appropriate candidates at appropriate levels in appropriate environments.

It is also worth mentioning that saying things like "these are banned" or "it is illegal to use these"is also erroneous. As has been mentioned, you can go out an buy an alarming amount of stuff openly without any license or prescription. It is how and when you use these things which may determine you actions are illegal.

Summary?

Stick to within your remit of training and remember you remit of training can be as narrow or as wide as you choose.

 

[Robbi]

good post Gentry

 

[Bothwell_Craig]

Summary?

Stick to within your remit of training and remember you remit of training can be as narrow or as wide as you choose.

Interesting that the two providers are summarising in exactly the same way!

I have my own First Aid business in addition to my normal job.

I also instruct for the Scottish Ambulance Service, the British Red Cross and the British Heart Foundation. For 8 years I was a training officer with a Scottish Mountain Rescue Team. My first ever first aid course dealt mainly with ballistic injuries owing to my active role at the time. I have and continue to provide front line medical intervention over the last twenty years.

I'm sorry Martyn but I'm going to again challenge your "not able to make life over limb decisions". The bottom line is that without life a limb is of no use.
That is in no way me justifying the use of a tourniquet or brand names such as celox. The reason tourniquets were removed from the main syllabuses was that people generally f****d them up.
And it's not points scoring either. You have made it clear that you have knowledge but that statement is, in my opinion, not only wrong but potentially life threatening for those with extremely limited knowledge.
You'd be amazed (or perhaps not) at the amount of people during basic expedition extrication training who will not move a non breathing casualty from a vehicle for fear of causing a spinal injury!

Life or limb decisions are perhaps the easiest decisions to make. Life everytime.

 

[Martyn]

Interesting that the two providers are summarising in exactly the same way!

I have my own First Aid business in addition to my normal job.

I also instruct for the Scottish Ambulance Service, the British Red Cross and the British Heart Foundation. For 8 years I was a training officer with a Scottish Mountain Rescue Team. My first ever first aid course dealt mainly with ballistic injuries owing to my active role at the time. I have and continue to provide front line medical intervention over the last twenty years.

I'm sorry Martyn but I'm going to again challenge your "not able to make life over limb decisions". The bottom line is that without life a limb is of no use.
That is in no way me justifying the use of a tourniquet or brand names such as celox. The reason tourniquets were removed from the main syllabuses was that people generally f****d them up.
And it's not points scoring either. You have made it clear that you have knowledge but that statement is, in my opinion, not only wrong but potentially life threatening for those with extremely limited knowledge.
You'd be amazed (or perhaps not) at the amount of people during basic expedition extrication training who will not move a non breathing casualty from a vehicle for fear of causing a spinal injury!

Life or limb decisions are perhaps the easiest decisions to make. Life everytime.

I understand your point and I agree to an extent, but I think we are probably debating the same thing from slightly different angles. Yes anyone forced into that situation will be forced to make life over limb decisions, but those decisions are made unnecessarily complex and dangerous by carrying equipment that they are not trianed and do not have the skill to use. If 99.9% of bleeds can be managed with pressure and elevation, why carry a tourniquet and haemostats? What next - cricothyrotomy? You can buy the kits.

 

[Bothwell_Craig]

I understand your point and I agree to an extent, but I think we are probably debating the same thing from slightly different angles. Yes anyone forced into that situation will be forced to make life over limb decisions, but those decisions are made unnecessarily complex and dangerous by carrying equipment that they are not trianed and do not have the skill to use. If 99.9% of bleeds can be managed with pressure and elevation, why carry a tourniquet and haemostats? What next - cricothyrotomy? You can buy the kits.

And now we agree 100% Martyn

Craig

 

[Genty]

Agreed.

The ABC of first aid has also been prescribed for ages but I am not sure people understand why and that may help understanding why and how 'life over limb' decisions are made.

Think about the ABC as a guide to what will kill you first. (Different providers use slightly different mnemonics but they are all very similar in principle).

A = Airway (or assess Danger depending on which sylabus you have been taught). No airway or immidate danger means the you or the casualty are as good as dead.
B - Breathing. If the caz is not breathing they have around 3 minutes before brain damage.
C = Circulation. It is very difficult to put a time on how long it takes to bleed to death as it depends on the wound. A severed femoral artery will kill you in minutes...but this is rare. Think of a window of opportuntity to treat within 15-20 minutes.
D = Damage (or deformity or dsyfunction...) e.g. Breaks. Broken femur or pelvis or internal injuries. Think 1 - 1.5 hours
E = Environment (amongst other E's). 6 - 12 hours for envrionmental factors such as Heatstroke or Hyporthermia.

Another way this hierachy is presented is "Breathing, Bleeding, Breaks and Burns".

With this in mind you can clearly see there is no point worrying about blood loss if the cas isn't breathing (except C-ABC protocols for hostile / military environments). There is no point worrying about a broken ankle if the caz has massive blood loss.

Models and 'rules' are designed to encompass generics. They cannot account for every single possibility and scenario but Life over Limbs really is as simple as ABC.

 

[Genty]

Blimely! You've got to be quick to reply in this forum!

 

[Bothwell_Craig]

Agreed.

The ABC of first aid has also been prescribed for ages but I am not sure people understand why and that may help understanding why and how 'life over limb' decisions are made.

Think about the ABC as a guide to what will kill you first. (Different providers use slightly different mnemonics but they are all very similar in principle).

A = Airway (or assess Danger depending on which sylabus you have been taught). No airway or immidate danger means the you or the casualty are as good as dead.
B - Breathing. If the caz is not breathing they have around 3 minutes before brain damage.
C = Circulation. It is very difficult to put a time on how long it takes to bleed to death as it depends on the wound. A severed femoral artery will kill you in minutes...but this is rare. Think of a window of opportuntity to treat within 15-20 minutes.
D = Damage (or deformity or dsyfunction...) e.g. Breaks. Broken femur or pelvis or internal injuries. Think 1 - 1.5 hours
E = Environment (amongst other E's). 6 - 12 hours for envrionmental factors such as Heatstroke or Hyporthermia.

Another way this hierachy is presented is "Breathing, Bleeding, Breaks and Burns".

With this in mind you can clearly see there is no point worrying about blood loss if the cas isn't breathing (except C-ABC protocols for hostile / military environments). There is no point worrying about a broken ankle if the caz has massive blood loss.

Models and 'rules' are designed to encompass generics. They cannot account for every single possibility and scenario but Life over Limbs really is as simple as ABC.

Just to compound things further, we are now teaching C ABCDE at IHCD FPOS courses as of May this year. C standing for catastrophic bleeding! They've also included tourniquet at FPOS Intermediate level!!

I'm pretty sure that the Scottish Ambulance Service have also updated their protocols now as well to include the C (must double check that with staff)

confused? .....you will be

 

[Bothwell_Craig]

not one of you have mentioned keeping the patient warm, covering with coats, blankets, sleeping bags etc ......why is that ?

Robbi

with blood loss the first thing to worry about is stopping the loss after that the biggest concern (and most likely killer) is shock. Get the legs raised and get that reserve to the bodys core.

 

[Robbi]

cheers Craig, i know that mate.

in my very limited experience ( i've only done a couple of those dirty nasty St. john FAW courses and thankfully only ever had to deal with minor cuts so far ) it seems you guys are trying to baffle folks with bull****. i defy anyone in their every day lives in the UK to need and or do what you lot are going on about.

in the first example given ( cut wrist etc ) ...

assess the situation.........

make safe if needed

if you are with someone else get them to go for or call for help if not use mobile


try to stop the bleeding, apply 1 dressing and elevate, if that dressing soaks through, apply another one on top

try to make the patient as comfy as possible

raise legs if possible

keep patient warm

keep patient awake, talk to them, reassure them

pray that proffessional help arrives soon because thats as much as you can do.

So.....yep ! easy isn't it.

 

[Genty]

it seems you guys are trying to baffle folks with bull****.

See Post #73

I don't think anyone is trying to intentionally baffle. I think we are all trying to say that regardless of how complex the situation, simple principles apply.

 

[durulz]

If you do use flour to stop bleeding then when it dries you could use the resultant flour/blood mix as a black pudding lunch for any cannibal or vampire friends.

 

[Sniper]

Genty my post is true but as you do point out only with the common or garden variety of first aid courses which is what most folks attend. I do however recognise that certain recognised and official emergency services do extend training a bit further, I was not referring to these on my post, that is why I asked the question trained by who and what for.
I am with Martyn 100% in that in this country and with our emergency services the need for such measures are negligible to non existant.
I'll say it again though unless you are trained and authorised to use these types of lotion or potion they must never be used on any third party. You can of course use whatever you like on yourself, it's your funeral afterall (pun intended naturally). Now come on lighten up folks. I love the idea from Durulz of a black pudding for vampires LMAO!

 

[Toddy]

So, theoretically, the old folks idea of the piptopous betullina strip or the fresh spider web to cover cuts and stop bleeding.....or the styptic pencil of alum......

I think there's a huge difference between very minor cuts and grazes and the kind that affects more than the surface layers of the skin.

I'm not starting another argument, but I think it's a relevant point.

I am very conscious that on our islands good first aid is usually not that far away, but we don't pester those folks for minor cuts, grazes, burns, etc., I really doubt that quikclot (under any name) would be the first thought of any of us.
However, I did buy a spray on stuff for £1 in one of the poundstores recently that claims to disinfect and stop the bleeding of minor cuts.
I bleed freely the red juice just runs, and I soak through several elastoplasts before it finally clots.
No elastoplasts ? would I try the flour ? I still don't think so, I think I'd just pad up, raise and apply some pressure. I can see the temptation though if someone says, "Oh this'll work, and it'll do it really quickly "

Toddy