Flaming Ventile

[John Fenna]

It is good stuff fuctionally, but I would not knowingly buy any fabric with it these days. If we consumers vote with our feet (or rather wallets) the demand for these treatmets may decrease.

I doubt it - DWR finishes (ie Teflon/flurocarbon) were originally just a treatment to stop fabrics rucking up as layers of fabric were layed out on the cutting tables. It helped the fabric slide on fabric - later it was realised that it was a shower-proofing as well = heavy hype on DWR as a proofing! A free bonus!
Cutting out the coating would make munufacture more costly as it would take longer to lay out the fabrics.....

 

[Toddy]

John you're a mine of information
I wondered how a lubricant suddenly became a waterproofing agent.
I sometimes use stuff on my handspun wools for weaving that's sold just as fibre lubricant; it stops the singles threads from pilling and snapping; and it's a pain to wash out afterward because it really does waterproof the wools too.
Never put the two together

cheers,
M

 

[johnboy]

So is the upshot of this. That 'Ventile' in it's basic form is no longer as fire resistant as it was, due to the use of some form of fabric treatment that may be a water repellant finish but could be added to make material handling easier in the manufacture stage???

Also was the fabric in the damaged garment in the OP 'Ventile' or some other cotton fabric with the same properties / characteristics as Ventile but not trademarked 'Ventile' fabric?? Finally have the manufacturers of the Garment in the OP actually done anything wrong??

 

[topknot]

No probs with that Trunks, i'll put up a pic for all.

Topknot

 

[BorderReiver]

I noticed that my new Ventile jacket was "beading" rain, so I washed it a few times and that was fixed.

Now the outer layer gets wet and goes hard as board, just like the Ventile I know and love.

 

[Mikey P]

I have one of the v nice BCUK ventile jackets (see pic above left). I think they were made by Westwinds, so does that mean I'm unlikely to have the same issue? I generally try to keep my kit away from the fire but, as we all know, it just needs a stray spark...

Anyway, will be careful in future, just in case.

 

[Dougster]

I have one of the v nice BCUK ventile jackets (see pic above left). I think they were made by Westwinds, so does that mean I'm unlikely to have the same issue? I generally try to keep my kit away from the fire but, as we all know, it just needs a stray spark...

Anyway, will be careful in future, just in case.

Not if it's been washed a few times b y what I've read above.

 

[Hangman]

From what I was told by Snowsled the Ventile they use is genuine Ventile sourced from Ventile Fabrics (Talbot Weaving) this was confirmed in my conversation with Mike from Ventile Fabrics.

My 'gripe' with Snowsled is that in my conversation regarding the problem i encountered is that they were almost unwilling to try and understand my comments about how previous ventile garments I owned have reacted to embers / fire and my query as to why this particular garment acted differently. There had to be a reason and this is all I wanted to know, being defensive and not very forthcoming is IMO a very poor response.

By mentioning that I work (part time) for a bushcraft and survival school and that myself and the owner had previously recommended Ventile garments (in particular from Snowsled) and that given the current 'problem' we couldn't in all honesty recommend them in future that Snowsled became a littlemore forthcoming in the issue of the material being treated.

I consider it poor customer service to have to mention 'connections' / inability to recommend a product to get full information.

Mark from Ventile by contrast was very open, and by what he said he would look into gave me the impression that they as a manufacturer were concerned with thier products reputation.

So as to have the manufacturers of the garment done anything wrong I leave to the reader to decide.

The other reason for posting is that given my experience I felt that it should be shared so that it might be of use to others.

Topknot, from the pics and what you describe that sounds much more like the behaviour of Ventile that I am familier with, I'm assume that it didn't burst into flame but just charred?

 

[johnboy]

Interesting,

I understand your concerns. It’s not nice when a bit of kit costing a good deal of money gets damaged or lost… I’m still smarting over the loss of a rack of ‘Friends’ while climbing on bishops buttress down at Chair Ladder in 1997…

I suppose one view and the one manufacturer may have might be.

Is the product made from Ventile? Yes.
Was the garment of merchantable quality at the time of sale? Yes
Is the product described as fire resistant by the manufacturer? No
Has the product been damaged by 'fire'? Yes.
Is fire damage covered in any warranty or guarantee offered by the manufacturer? No.
Then how is it our fault that the product is damaged and why should we repair it FOC.

I ripped my Bison Bushcraft Ventile ‘ SAS’ stylee smock clambering under some barbed wire. It’s fragile stuff… IIRC when it came new it also had a ‘DWR’ type finish and the water beaded off pretty quickly when it got worn the DWR wore off and no more beading.. Older still and the dye on the creases began to wear off..

I do tend to agree with you, my perception of Ventile’s many miraculous properties was that it was generally more resistant than nylon based garments to sparks and small embers around a camp fire.

That said it is a cotton based fabric. I was doing some testinglast month to AS 4553 which calls for a fabric drape test and the fabric sample is a plain untreated cotton of a specific density and finish. Anyhow after some testing I was left with the clear impression that cotton is really very flammable even untreated...

If the problem is a fabric one not a garment construction issue then if all Ventile comes from the same supplier and to the same spec then all manufacturers will have the same problem?

 

[Hangman]

Johnboy: "I do tend to agree with you, my perception of Ventile’s many miraculous properties was that it was generally more resistant than nylon based garments to sparks and small embers around a camp fire. "

Which begs the question, if Ventile no longer has this particular quality, does this mean that potentially it's no better than cheaper products and not worth the price premium?

I think the questions you raised could be seen as reasonable, however, when a customer comes back with a compliant or problem being unwilling to listen to the customer's point of view isn't going to give the customer the feeling that they are getting 'good' service, especially when contrasted with the response from the material manufaturer who has no link at all with the end user at all.

As for the repair I have to admit that £20-00 for a 5p size hole to me seems to be quite a steep repair cost, unless it's something very very special. As I'm still waiting and as no lead time for the repair has been given I'll have to wait and see. In hindsight I perhaps should have just got a patch of ventile and repaired it myself, but knew that with the way work is it'll be sometime before I get the time to do it.

 

[John Fenna]

I just took 3 pieces of Ventile - one new Bison Bushcraft (got it just after Xmas never washed), one old Bison Bushcraft(several years old) - (stuff sacks only were used here by the way) and a sample from over 30 years ago.
I took a ferro rod and showered them with nice hot sparks, several times.
Not a mark on the cloth on any of the samples tested.
I hope that helps

 

[johnboy]

Johnboy:
Which begs the question, if Ventile no longer has this particular quality, does this mean that potentially it's no better than cheaper products and not worth the price premium?

Difficult one to answer that.. The manufacturer does not say the jackets are fire resistant in any way. So when you make a decision to purchase it could be reasonable to say that Ventile's other properties, Breathability, High level of wind resistance, water resistance combined in a natural material are it's selling points for the majority of customers. Along with the fact it is 'Ventile' some folk will buy just for the brand.

'Fire resistance' is one of those properties that 'bushcrafters' go for and gets talked abut on forums a lot.

But when you look at some common manufacturers websites for information on 'fire' resistance..

Westwinds has nothing at all, neither does Snowsled...

Neither company make the claim that the fabric is as much as spark resistant..

So if a customer complains about a 5p sized hole being burnt in a jacket from a stray ember a jacket made from a material you never said was 'fire' proof what level of 'customer service' is reasonable to give????

Fix it for free at a cost to your business?
Charge for a repair??

Perceptions of acceptable or reasonable 'customer service' are always going to vary from person to person. It's difficult to comment on if manufacturer 'X' was reasonable in how they delt with a situation based on forum posts.

I just took 3 pieces of Ventile - one new Bison Bushcraft (got it just after Xmas never washed), one old Bison Bushcraft(several years old) - (stuff sacks only were used here by the way) and a sample from over 30 years ago.
I took a ferro rod and showered them with nice hot sparks, several times.
Not a mark on the cloth on any of the samples tested.
I hope that helps

Interesting John.... Can you repeat the test with a glowing wood ember placed on the fabric for 5-10 seconds..

 

[Nonsuch]

Ventile does rip on barbed wire really easily as I found out! Unsuitable for rough shooting because of that

NS

 

[Mikey P]

Not if it's been washed a few times b y what I've read above.

"Wash"? What's that then?

<pong>

 

[Dougster]

"Wash"? What's that then?

<pong>

Good point, my Barbour now stands up on it's own. Time for that Filson I've been drooling over.

 

[Hangman]

Johnboy: "So if a customer complains about a 5p sized hole being burnt in a jacket from a stray ember a jacket made from a material you never said was 'fire' proof what level of 'customer service' is reasonable to give????"

I think a start would be give a straight answer to a straight question - I asked the question 'Had the garment been proofed' I got a very cagey response and the comment well ventile is a cotton fabric and it isn't fireproof.

That wasn't the question I asked and it took some prodding to get an answer.

If they had said yes it comes to us with a treatment then I'd still been upset at the damage but ok with the honesty of person I was dealing with.

Likewise when I mentioned that I had a fair amount of experience with ventile going back to kit issued in the RAF and none had reacted like this before and that I would like to know why this garment reacted differently, Snowsled could have said "We're not sure, we'll ask Ventile if there has been a change in thier manufacturing process" instead I got the mantra "well ventile is a cotton fabric and it isn't fireproof."

In contacting Snowsled I wasn't having a go at them or trying set them up, but I had a garment that had reacted very differently from several others made from the same material and I wanted to understand why. To be less than straight and forthcoming to a customer's enquiry doesn't come across well.

John: Thanks for that, I'll be talking to Mark from Ventile next week and will point him to this thread. From my conversation with him he genuinely seemed interested in this and the reputation of his product.

 

[John Fenna]

I am a recognised lover of Ventile and have many, many Ventile smocks and jackets.
When I did my Btec as a Mature (!) student (Fashion Design) my final collection was in Ventile.
I find it tough and very weather resistant and apart from some pocket corners ripping out from the stitching on some smocks I have not had any wear issues with Ventile
None have ever burned, not from flame, spark or ember (I will experiment with embers again to develop Topknots flame test and my Ferro rod tests tomorrow and post the result here) - so far!

 

[John Fenna]

OK a glowing ember aprox 1cm cube was placed on the fabric and blown on to keep it alive ...and it charred its way through the Ventile!
It took about 1min to make a hole a little larger than the ember but although the edges of the hole kept glowing for a few seconds after the ember was removed it quickly died and did not continue to make the hole larger, nor did it burst into flame.
Pretty fire resistant in its own right - despite gross provocation!
This was done on a scrap of unwashed Ventile.
I still love the fabric!
A similar burn pattern was observed a while back with pure wool fabric.....

 

[Hangman]

UPDATE

I had a call from Mark at Ventile, he's been in touch with the dye manufacturer and the manufacturer of the flurocarbon impregnation - neither have had any recent changes in process that could account for my smock, he's tried burning a piece from a recent batch and it's not happening and behaving like good old ventile we know and love !

It would seem that I've been the 1 in a million exception to the rule.

We had quite a detailed discussion covering a few questions that I'd asked by e-mail and some things mentioned here on this thread.

I asked if the flurocarbon proofing could be removed - Yes it can several good soakings / washes and it will break down. Which is how I like my ventile.

He was a bit miffed by: "much of what we know as "ventile" is known in the trade as "Etaproof" and made under licence to be sold as ventile - I have little doubt that even this prestigious material is going through a development to make it cheaper to produce by way of increasing profits for its makers, and therby being blended with other fibres while retaining its name."

His comment was that Ventile is made by Ventile Materials (Talbot Weaving) of Chorley, they do not make material for others to re- badge nor do they buy other material and pass it off as Ventile, it is a pure cotton material and is not blended with other fibres. Etaproof is another (albeit similar material) but is a trademark of Stotz&Co. AG As for the weights of the material, there are several dependant upon application - the heaviest being for immersion suits and from personnal experience of wearing these I wouldn't want a shirt made of this grade - it would be to heavy and stiff !!

He's very kindly offered to send me 1/2 a metre of OD ventile to experiment with or use as patch material and has been in touch with Snowsled and they have agreed to share the repair costs of my smock between them. So I'd like to take this moment to publicly thank both of them.

I'd love to have come back with a definate reason as would Mark but we're both stumped as to why my smock did what it did.

 

[ged]

I'm wondering if there was something oily in the ember which jumped out of the fire and landed on your smock. That might have (a) caused the explosive disintegration which sent the ember your way in the first place and (b) wicked into or splashed onto the fabric and ignited from the ember.

I suspect we'll never really know, but we might find out more the next time you sit by the fire in your smock...