Fear of Farming
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We've touched on it before Edwin, myself and about 80% of my peer group are all childless through choice. They really do ravage the planet these ankle biters.
Conquered? Um... I think you mean annihilated.
4 million people in 4 years, and they didn't stop there... not so much a conquest... sounds more like genocide.
And then largely absorbed the rest (survivors) What's your point? The only difference between them and the way the Incas themselves did it before was the efficiency.
No, I'm afraid they didn't absorb the rest... they went on killing them, although they did send a few hundred back to Spain as slaves (if they survived the journey).
The population that was there is no longer there, they killed them all. So my point is, that isn't conquering a nation, it is genocide.
As for efficiency, I'm not sure that is a discussion I want to have, but your knowledge of history is somewhat lacking if you think what the Conquistadors did is any way comparable to the Incas.
Actually yes, they did absorb the rest. Otherwise most of Latin America would be populated by people with pure European DNA; but that ain't the case. Almost ALL the population has a percentage of Native DNA and there is indeed still some pure Incan peoples. And I suspect my knowledge of the history of the Americas is probably pretty good. Never mind that I have Latin American and Native North American relatives.
How many of these Incas you mentioned resided on the Caribbean islands that had their populations decimated by Columbus and his men?
The population of the 'Americas' was reduced to 10% of what it was, so how is that 'largely absorbing' them? It's genocide with only 1 in 10 surviving, not conquering... which was my original point.
So who are those people living up in the Andes, for example wearing the bowler hats, immigrants from Barcelona? Or the ones still building reed boats on Lake Titicaca? many more survived than the numbers quoted. But, one isn't an apologist for colonialism and many did die as did Spaniards in their many intercine wars in Spain.
You're right of course... no reason to let daft things like facts get into an argument... better to stick conjecture and hyperbole.
people think their happiness / escape from suffering, disease ( I refer to someone who brought in child birth death rates and curing diseases (more curing symptoms but anyway ), old age and death lies in constant sense gratification and constant economical and technical progress.
That is wrong.
We can find (more) relief in simple life and high thinking
PS quite a nice read, since I am not such a writer, talker and debater:
http://www.goodreads.com/book/show/328149.Original_Wisdom
Also humanity is one. So I can discuss stuff like this although I live in a "First World". Whats the difference from my mind and body than African or American? And as said before, for how long this will be the First World. Anyway I think most of N Europe is getting Second World, since both man and woman have to work, are huge in debt and are in the rat race. For me there is no difference in driving around in a Audi are a cat walking on four legs.
About my previous post, if Bushcraft people have problems with creating Rewilding Areas, yeah I can raise my eyebrows and state stuff like that.
Peace !
keep well
Mors
That is wrong.
We can find (more) relief in simple life and high thinking
PS quite a nice read, since I am not such a writer, talker and debater:
http://www.goodreads.com/book/show/328149.Original_Wisdom
Also humanity is one. So I can discuss stuff like this although I live in a "First World". Whats the difference from my mind and body than African or American? And as said before, for how long this will be the First World. Anyway I think most of N Europe is getting Second World, since both man and woman have to work, are huge in debt and are in the rat race. For me there is no difference in driving around in a Audi are a cat walking on four legs.
About my previous post, if Bushcraft people have problems with creating Rewilding Areas, yeah I can raise my eyebrows and state stuff like that.
Peace !
keep well
Mors
I have issues with rewinding….like the major one of being part of a population of 65,000,000 on one island…..there's no room for real re-wilding of many of the top predator species. Island populations are already on a sticky wicket genetically anyway. Other than that, that limited land mass becomes another issue when a species does so well it rapidly overtakes the native ones (grey squirrels for instance, mink and American crayfish for another pair) and there's 22miles of sea between us and the continent.
Some things just are not really feasible, regardless of how much we might like the idea.
Monbiot's another idiot.
M
Some things just are not really feasible, regardless of how much we might like the idea.
Monbiot's another idiot.
M
If people eat less meat a staggering amount of land would be available
also if we lived simple there would be also lots of room for other animals..... we lived 15.000 years farming with enough land and 40.000 years hunter gatherer. And now the earth is full.
So the problems lies in lifestyle and convictions
change that and globally animals and plants get some space back.
Also I work(ed) 15 years in nature conservation. Hard work, getting non productive land back to nature. Personally I counted and monitored the newly biodiversity: grasshoppers, flowers, mammals....etc Ignorant people treating you like a criminal or idiot. I do not care.
Can be done
pff that is enough for today, take care all
also if we lived simple there would be also lots of room for other animals..... we lived 15.000 years farming with enough land and 40.000 years hunter gatherer. And now the earth is full.
So the problems lies in lifestyle and convictions
change that and globally animals and plants get some space back.
Also I work(ed) 15 years in nature conservation. Hard work, getting non productive land back to nature. Personally I counted and monitored the newly biodiversity: grasshoppers, flowers, mammals....etc Ignorant people treating you like a criminal or idiot. I do not care.
Can be done
pff that is enough for today, take care all
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+1 to this.
When faced with important life decisions, moral dilemmas and questions of ethics, I've always found it helpful to ask myself "What would Kirk do?".
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People can't have it both ways, simple and technological, except that they can and are beginning to. We generate a fair proportion of our electricity from the panels on our roof as could far more people. Publishing is an example, masses of people publishing books online through Kindle etc and not a tree turned into paper in the process. Caveat-I still like printed books.
I've been vegetarian for most of my life. I fully accept the 'Diet for a Small Planet' dictum, but I also know we have 60,000 too many deer on the hills just now, that's a lot of meat that folks could be eating. Ah, but that takes us into the realms of politics as we try to discuss Sporting Interests, Game dealers, rights of access, etc.,
Honestly ? I think people in general are more aware. Whether that transfers into more tolerance and more self restraint, waits to be seen though.
I think if we managed to stop the culture of littering, destruction and vandalism, we'd be on a good start.
As an aside, we stopped using really toxic organophosphate dips on sheep, and then there was a surge in tick numbers….now there's a surge in people seriously damaged by Lymes disease. Wonder if they'll re-permit the use despite the appalling costs to people, animals and insect life.
http://www.theecologist.org/News/ne...ten_sheep_farmers_poisoned_by_pesticides.html
Often it's the Now! issue that is addressed and the past ones forgotten.
Humanity has a wonderful ability to transfer knowledge, to learn, to consider, but all too often history has to repeat itself because no one's listening.
M
Honestly ? I think people in general are more aware. Whether that transfers into more tolerance and more self restraint, waits to be seen though.
I think if we managed to stop the culture of littering, destruction and vandalism, we'd be on a good start.
As an aside, we stopped using really toxic organophosphate dips on sheep, and then there was a surge in tick numbers….now there's a surge in people seriously damaged by Lymes disease. Wonder if they'll re-permit the use despite the appalling costs to people, animals and insect life.
http://www.theecologist.org/News/ne...ten_sheep_farmers_poisoned_by_pesticides.html
Often it's the Now! issue that is addressed and the past ones forgotten.
Humanity has a wonderful ability to transfer knowledge, to learn, to consider, but all too often history has to repeat itself because no one's listening.
M
The Caribean Islands? I suppose you're referring to the Taino? They were quite a different people from the Inca. And an extremely low number people that have indeed disappeared.
How were the indigenous people "absorbed?" The survivors were bred into an insignificant number and the resulting "European" population in Latin America isn't pure European. That's the very definition of absorbed in this context. Why is that such a difficult concept for you to grasp.
The rest of the Americas had the native population reduced to it's current state by conquest (yes that means extermination) So what? I again ask how that differs from the way said indigenous population eliminated the populations before them? The Anasazi were completely exterminated; not reduced to insignificant numbers (as we eliminated the Taino) Nowhere am I saying that the European encroachment wasn't cruel; it was. Just putting in the perspective that the people here before were just as cruel and conquering in nature. They just lacked the numbers and technology to be as effective.
But as you said, "Why let facts get in the way of an argument?"
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I know they are different from the Inca... they were nowhere near the Inca. And 6.5 million dead on one island alone is a low number of people? Wow!
santaman2000 said:
My point was that it was genocide, not conquering. Try watching The Canary Effect... gives some of the basics of the situation, then we can talk about the 'survivors'.
santaman2000 said:
'So what?'... is that really your answer?
If you knew anything about their history, the indigenous people certainly did not eliminate the populations before them, but considering your attitude to the killing of millions, I'm not sure its worth delving any further into this discussion. Pretty disgusting attitude you have there to be honest.
santaman2000 said:
When you have any actual facts, perhaps it'd be a discussion worth having, but as I said, conjecture and hyperbole.
Not sure where you get those numbers. There was never 6.5 million Taino in the entire Caribbean pre-Columbus. It also seems unlikely that they were all killed seeing as how the DNA of most (almost all) current Puerto Ricans (and that would include my oldest grandson) is around 22% Taino.
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Yep. That's still my answer. Conquest = genocide, Always has, always will.
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