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santaman2000

M.A.B (Mad About Bushcraft)
Jan 15, 2011
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.....If you knew anything about their history, the indigenous people certainly did not eliminate the populations before them, but considering your attitude to the killing of millions, I'm not sure its worth delving any further into this discussion. Pretty disgusting attitude you have there to be honest.

When you have any actual facts, perhaps it'd be a discussion worth having, but as I said, conjecture and hyperbole.

You might reconsider just who has history mixed up with hyperbole. Maybe then you can discuss somebody else's history. Until then you probably ought to just listen to the folks with some skin in the game. Whether you're sure or unsure if it's worth delving further into the discussion, I'm definitely sure it ain't worth listening to an outsider.
 
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dewi

Full Member
May 26, 2015
2,647
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As I said, unless you aquaint yourself with the facts, pretty pointless discussion...

EDIT: Please be aware to anyone who watches this, some bits are a tad disturbing!!

[video=youtube;2wm0EvTk8o4]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2wm0EvTk8o4[/video]

Only 5 minutes out of your life, and notice the population numbers of the island discussed: between 3 million and 8.5 million.

So, conquest or genocide? You say potato, I say genocide.
 
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santaman2000

M.A.B (Mad About Bushcraft)
Jan 15, 2011
16,909
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Clicked on it and it said "video not available." In any case the largest Taino population centers were only estimated to be about 3000 each. Multiply that times an appropriate number of such centers and add the smaller (more common) ones and the whole Taino population ain't that big. An amateur youtube video that I can't even see doesn't change that little fact.
 

santaman2000

M.A.B (Mad About Bushcraft)
Jan 15, 2011
16,909
1,114
67
Florida
But there is some hope for your arguments. It's estimated that over the entire course of conquest, the total Natives killed in the entire New World (from 1492 until late in the 1800s) was around 300 million.
 

santaman2000

M.A.B (Mad About Bushcraft)
Jan 15, 2011
16,909
1,114
67
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Here you go; the Taino population and decline:


[h=2]Population decline[edit][/h]Early population estimates of Hispaniola, probably the most populous island inhabited by Taínos, range from 100,000 to 1,000,000 people. The maximum estimates for Jamaica and Puerto Rico are 600,000 people.[SUP][37][/SUP] The Spanish priest Bartolomé de Las Casas (who had lived in Santo Domingo) wrote in his 1561 multi-volume History of the Indies:[SUP][38][/SUP]
There were 60,000 people living on this island [when I arrived in 1508], including the Indians; so that from 1494 to 1508, over three million people had perished from war, slavery and the mines. Who in future generations will believe this?
Researchers today doubt Las Casas's figures for the pre-contact levels of the Taíno population, considering them an exaggeration. For example, Anderson Córdova estimates a maximum of 500,000 people inhabiting the island.[SUP][39][/SUP] The Taíno population estimates vary a great deal, from a few hundred thousand up to 8,000,000.[SUP][40][/SUP] They had no resistance to Old World diseases, notably smallpox.[SUP][41][/SUP] The encomienda system brought many Taíno to work in the fields and mines in exchange for Spanish protection,[SUP][42][/SUP] education, and a seasonal salary.[SUP][43][/SUP] Under the pretense of searching for gold and other materials,[SUP][44][/SUP] many Spaniards took advantage of the regions now under control of the anaborios and Spanish encomenderos to exploit the native population by stealing their land and wealth. It would take some time before the Taíno revolted against their oppressors — both Indian and Spanish alike — and many military campaigns before Emperor Charles V eradicated the encomienda system as a form of slavery.[SUP][45][/SUP][SUP][46][/SUP]
In thirty years, between 80% and 90% of the Taíno population died.[SUP][47][/SUP] Because of the increased number of people (Spanish) on the island, there was a higher demand for food. Taíno cultivation was converted to Spanish methods. In hopes of frustrating the Spanish, some Taínos refused to plant or harvest their crops. The supply of food became so low in 1495 and 1496 that some 50,000 died from the severity of the famine.[SUP][48][/SUP] Historians have determined that the massive decline was due more to infectious disease outbreaks than any warfare or direct attacks.[SUP][49][/SUP][SUP][50][/SUP] By 1507 their numbers had shrunk to 60,000. Scholars believe that epidemic disease (smallpox, influenza, measles, and typhus) was the overwhelming cause of the population decline of the indigenous people.[SUP][51][/SUP][SUP][52][/SUP][SUP][53][/SUP]
 

dewi

Full Member
May 26, 2015
2,647
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Cheshire
Amateur YouTube video? Erm, that is The Canary Effect... you might want to check your facts.... yet again.

As for your conquest argument... the word conquest derives from Latin, it means to win. Just to win, nothing about killing millions... just to win.

On the other hand, the word genocide derives from both Greek and English and means the deliberate killing of a large group of people, especially those of a particular nation or ethnic group.

Do you see the difference?

Whether you care to research the facts or not, 6.5 million people died in one place at the hands of Columbus, many more died at the hands of the Conquistadors... just because you can't be bothered to learn about it doesn't make you right because of ignorance.

Incidentally, with your 'so what?' comment... can you think of another occasion where 6 million people where killed because of their particular ethnic group? Was that a conquest or a genocide?
 

dewi

Full Member
May 26, 2015
2,647
12
Cheshire
Here you go; the Taino population and decline:


[h=2]Population decline[edit][/h]Early population estimates of Hispaniola, probably the most populous island inhabited by Taínos, range from 100,000 to 1,000,000 people. The maximum estimates for Jamaica and Puerto Rico are 600,000 people.[SUP][37][/SUP] The Spanish priest Bartolomé de Las Casas (who had lived in Santo Domingo) wrote in his 1561 multi-volume History of the Indies:[SUP][38][/SUP]
There were 60,000 people living on this island [when I arrived in 1508], including the Indians; so that from 1494 to 1508, over three million people had perished from war, slavery and the mines. Who in future generations will believe this?
Researchers today doubt Las Casas's figures for the pre-contact levels of the Taíno population, considering them an exaggeration. For example, Anderson Córdova estimates a maximum of 500,000 people inhabiting the island.[SUP][39][/SUP] The Taíno population estimates vary a great deal, from a few hundred thousand up to 8,000,000.[SUP][40][/SUP] They had no resistance to Old World diseases, notably smallpox.[SUP][41][/SUP] The encomienda system brought many Taíno to work in the fields and mines in exchange for Spanish protection,[SUP][42][/SUP] education, and a seasonal salary.[SUP][43][/SUP] Under the pretense of searching for gold and other materials,[SUP][44][/SUP] many Spaniards took advantage of the regions now under control of the anaborios and Spanish encomenderos to exploit the native population by stealing their land and wealth. It would take some time before the Taíno revolted against their oppressors — both Indian and Spanish alike — and many military campaigns before Emperor Charles V eradicated the encomienda system as a form of slavery.[SUP][45][/SUP][SUP][46][/SUP]
In thirty years, between 80% and 90% of the Taíno population died.[SUP][47][/SUP] Because of the increased number of people (Spanish) on the island, there was a higher demand for food. Taíno cultivation was converted to Spanish methods. In hopes of frustrating the Spanish, some Taínos refused to plant or harvest their crops. The supply of food became so low in 1495 and 1496 that some 50,000 died from the severity of the famine.[SUP][48][/SUP] Historians have determined that the massive decline was due more to infectious disease outbreaks than any warfare or direct attacks.[SUP][49][/SUP][SUP][50][/SUP] By 1507 their numbers had shrunk to 60,000. Scholars believe that epidemic disease (smallpox, influenza, measles, and typhus) was the overwhelming cause of the population decline of the indigenous people.[SUP][51][/SUP][SUP][52][/SUP][SUP][53][/SUP]

Wrong island. But as I say, never let the facts get in the way of your argument. :rolleyes:
 

santaman2000

M.A.B (Mad About Bushcraft)
Jan 15, 2011
16,909
1,114
67
Florida
Wrong island. But as I say, never let the facts get in the way of your argument. :rolleyes:

Doesn't matter if it's your island or not. That estimate is the largest population. All other islands were even smaller. read on into the article and you'll see that the estimated total population was varied from anly a few hundred thousand up to 8 million (in the entire Caribbean) Most people I talk to say nearer the lower number. I'll still trust their word over yours.
 

dewi

Full Member
May 26, 2015
2,647
12
Cheshire
But there is some hope for your arguments. It's estimated that over the entire course of conquest, the total Natives killed in the entire New World (from 1492 until late in the 1800s) was around 300 million.

Only 300 million? Blimey... that few? :rolleyes:

And what would be a 3rd of 1% of that?

Only 300 million killed by 1900. That is more people killed than WW1 and WW2 combined by nearly a factor of 3! Are you being deliberately obtuse?
 

dewi

Full Member
May 26, 2015
2,647
12
Cheshire
Doesn't matter if it's your island or not. That estimate is the largest population. All other islands were even smaller. read on into the article and you'll see that the estimated total population was varied from anly a few hundred thousand up to 8 million (in the entire Caribbean) Most people I talk to say nearer the lower number. I'll still trust their word over yours.

No, no, you misunderstand... same island geographically, but I know where you got your 'facts', so its a very different island that you are quoting. But please, carry on.
 

dewi

Full Member
May 26, 2015
2,647
12
Cheshire
Am I supposed to know what that means or place some significance on it? It's youtube!

Type The Canary Effect into Google and research it... I'm not making your argument for you... you have to do some work santaman2000 or where is the fun in it?
 

santaman2000

M.A.B (Mad About Bushcraft)
Jan 15, 2011
16,909
1,114
67
Florida
Only 300 million? Blimey... that few? :rolleyes:

And what would be a 3rd of 1% of that?

Only 300 million killed by 1900. That is more people killed than WW1 and WW2 combined by nearly a factor of 3! Are you being deliberately obtuse?

A third of 1% ? That would be about 1 million. But that's not the same as saying that 1 million Natives Americans surviving today represents one third of 1% of the original population. That 300 million would represent a rolling population with a turnover approximately every 40 years or so. The actual population at any single time would be considerably less by fractions. And there are more than several million living in the US alone.
 

santaman2000

M.A.B (Mad About Bushcraft)
Jan 15, 2011
16,909
1,114
67
Florida
Type The Canary Effect into Google and research it... I'm not making your argument for you... you have to do some work santaman2000 or where is the fun in it?

I've a better idea. You move here, meet some Native Americans, Puerto Rican, other Latin Americans, and marry into them or let you kids do so. Then we'll talk. Otherwise you're just another outsider.
 

dewi

Full Member
May 26, 2015
2,647
12
Cheshire
I've a better idea. You move here, meet some Native Americans, Puerto Rican, other Latin Americans, and marry into them or let you kids do so. Then we'll talk. Otherwise you're just another outsider.

Argue a point from a position of ignorance... thats the way :)

Meanwhile... a thought... the 'only' 300 million people killed by genocide... not nice.

Happen to know what the population of the United States of America is right now?

Answers on a postcard to...
 
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