Expedition summer 2006

[arctic hobo]

I am assuming mobile phone coverage will be zero so what method of communication with the outside world will we have should the worst occur?

It will almost certainly be zero, yes. Which means only one other option: satellite phones. The only network type that covers the area costs £1000 for a pay as you go handset with a two hour talk time battery. I'm in two minds about it. In one way, you might argue we'd be terribly irresponsible to not take one. In another way, they offer very little for a very high price, and the practicalities of people getting to us in the middle of absolutely nowhere would mean there is no point. Your thoughts please.
As to rubber boats, they may well be cheaper too. Though I did not know they would be heavy. I have looked further and found that it would not be difficult for me (or whoever) to take the boats to Kilpisjärvi, by land rover or whatever. However what I completely forgot, stupidly, was that we need the boats for the first part. Which means unless we detour to Skibotn, and also persuade the hire company to be kind enough to drive there and pick up their boats, we will have to carry them to Råstajavri.
This leaves only a relatively short distance to walk with them.
As regards distances, it's 25 miles across Ringvassøya, 37 miles by canoe to Lyngen, 52 miles to Kilpisjärvi then it's 18 miles from Kilpisjärvi to Råstajavri (a lake, the source of Lainioälven).
When we hit the river, it's 59 miles to Övre Soppero, 32 miles from there to Lainio, the town on www.lainio.com. There are a number of smaller towns, and then a confluence with Torneälven, 34 miles. There is no town there.
A true multitude of small towns later, we hit the Sweden-Finland border, and another river. From there, 31 miles to Pello, the first biggish town since a while. Then 32 more to Overtorneå, a big town. Just 42 more to Tornio and the sea.
I'll get my map and put the names on as I guess it's quite confusing!

 

[arctic hobo]

 

[bambodoggy]

lol as bushcrafters u should make ur own canoes

Do you know I actually had the same thought myself....only for a split second as it's totally impracticle to make boats/corricles etc and then take them down unknown (to us anyway) white water.....pity coz that really would have been bushcrafti and cool ):

Chris, you may find lighter rubber raft boats but I seem to think they are heavy and have wooden bottoms to them....still, maybe you can get lighter ones...I'm sure somebody on here will be a rafting expert...or at least have done it a few times....I'm certainly no expert so don't take my word for it that they are heavy.

I would personally say to forget the sat-phone, they are soooooo much money and they still don't always work (read - when you need them most). I'd say a good quality VHF radio might be worthwhile, lots of flares/smoke...a good first aid kit, detailed route plans left with poeple you trust and definate IA Drills and Emergency routes and plans....
If we'd been planning this trip 10 years ago nobody would even have thought of sat-phones so I don't think it's irrisponcible not to take one.....rather it's a bit of an extravagance to take one.
I'm presumming some of the guys will have GPS's....Chris, you're more than welcome to take mine even if you just use it as I do as a back up once a day, it's my old army one so very robust and hard to knacker (hope my old qm isn't a member here!!!! ): ) It's got lat/long or OS grid ref ability and I'm fairly sure you can program other mapping systems onto it.

I seriously think you all need to get out and train a bit (me included if I am able to come) as walking with the sort of bulk/weight you'll have is as I'm sure most of you know, hard work.

Doesn't sound like you guys need any climbinb training as a few of you seem to know what you're doing and as you say Chris, it'll only be fun climbing and not part of the route.... I'll still go through z-drags and canoe related climbing with you if you like.

Blimey....here I am rattling on again!!!! best let somebody else chat for a bit now!

 

[Wayne]

I didn't consider a Sat phone. I think they are simply too expensive to be worth carrying and as with all gadgets they can let you down. Saying that a hand held VHF might be good. i think a flew flares is a good idea.

Chris thanks for the milages helps put the task into prespective. I would have thought we could arrange with the outfitter to pick up the canoes at the start for a smallish fee. Its not everyday they get to hire out 5 or 6 boats to one party.

Bambodoggy would you suggest we take helmets for the white water sections? I can see the kit list going through the roof. Good job there is a year to plan.

 

[bambodoggy]

I hate to say it but yes, helmets are a must for the white bits....no worries the rest of the time but a rock on the bonce can kill ya! Also any insurrance you have may well be invalidated if you don't take proper precausions....which will, no doubt include helmets!

 

[Lithril]

Training is going to have to start early next year for me I think, I'm not too worried about the distance but if we're carrying the canoe/raft we're going to be adding about another 10kg onto pack weights, with oars, helmets etc we could be looking at pack weights in excess of 30kg (around 60lb I think).

Okies can anyone recommend any good books on the areas (as in what to expect) and also maps to look at?

 

[Andy]

can we hire the safety kit with the canoes?

We haven't considerd a vital vital part of kit yet. We all need to get new knives

 

[willie]

could canoes manage white water ??? or are u getting a boat for that ?

 

[Moonraker]

I keep reading this thread and getting very excited then I keep reading back to the original thread and seeing it says 2006 NOT 2005 :?:

That is a long way off....

OK if I may pitch in regardless, if you want to save a big chunk of cash, from what I have seen so far, I have a suggestion.

For the return trip you could be flying back to the UK for around £78!

From Kemi catch the VR Finnish rail train to Tampere (Helsinki Intercity 152 via Oulu, 1 change) and then Ryanair flight from to London Stansted for around £78 all in :shock: ( 58.50 EURO rail ticket and 55 EURO flight ticket) 6.30 hours on the train and quick flight home. Also catch Ryanair one way flight from London Stansted to Oslo (Torp) for the first leg from £12.99 inc tax!. If you get your flights booked early it could be cheaper

Check out Kemi travel here:

http://www.kemi.fi/english/traffic.htm

Remember though, the limited baggage allowance of Ryanair cheap flights of 15 kg checked in baggage.

Any excess over 15kg will be chargeable at the rate of £4.50/ˆ7 (or local currency equivalent) per kilo. For health and safety reasons Ryanair will not accept any individual item exceeding 32 kilos.
You must identify your checked baggage

Remember that ALL flights have a baggage allowance including BA

Also to put it into perspective you can drive by road on the E8 from Tromso to Kemi in around 8 hours I have some friends who live in Tromso and will try to get some details for you on hiring canoes etc.

GL guys 'n girls.

 

[jamesdevine]

I am away for 4 days and there are 4 pages of posts to read. It seems a lot of ideas have been put in and lot off hard work to do over the next 18 months. I feel for as soon as the group cost for the trip has been agreed I can start looking at other costs.

I am going to check out training costs here in the canoeing but I am sure if we are hiring the canoes we can hire the bouncy aids as well for an outfitter as well helmets etc. The more expirenced in these matters might not agree I don't known.

I would be good to have limit on the personal kit and list done up for instance we all don't need to carry a GB do we and the cost of communal kit made part of the budget.

I am looking forward to this so long as it stays with my budget.

James

 

[bambodoggy]

Definately a good Idea to Pool kit James......not so sure about your assumption that it has to be a GB axe!

It does make sence to hire the bouyancy aids/helmets/paddles etc from whomever the canoes/rafts are hired from.

Willie - "can canoes manage white water"......you betcha they can!!!! I've never quite managed it myself but I had a mate at college who could roll his open boat just as easily as we all could a kayak! If the water is above grade 3 though you would need airbags and knee straps or you might end up swimming down the river!
The more I think about it the more I think blow up rafts could be the way forward....ok it's not as romantic but it's more practicle and I'd be happier leading a novice (no offence meant to those with canoeing skill...I'm talking generally here) team through grade 3 - 4 - 5 (maybe...we just don't know) water if they were safely tucked up in rafts.... having said that I think after a little training and with a big dose of bottle most people could "get down" most grade 3 water if not enjoy it. The problems come with the extra weight in the boats and the fact that we'd be very exposed if anything went wrong.
I don't mind a bit of a drama but it's not so fun when you're in a gorge and you can't get out and there's no "999" to phone for help and the nearest hospital is a very long way away.

Come on BCUK....we must have somebody who knows a bit more than me about rubber rafting? ? ? ?

Moonraker, can you ask your mates if they have river guides (maps not people) over there that we can get our hands on before we go?

 

[Moonraker]

Moonraker, can you ask your mates if they have river guides (maps not people) over there that we can get our hands on before we go?

I will ask them. May be a little while as I need to find an updated email address as the one I have is old. Will post when I hear anything.

 

[bambodoggy]

That's cool Matey....we've got over 18 months!!! lol ):

Thanks....it'd be nice to know roughly what we're heading in to!

 

[Lithril]

I get excited entirely too easily about things like this, already started looking around for maps etc.
K the only possible problem I can see with Rafts is possible weight issues, havent looked yet to see how much they weigh, but at least with the canoes you can spread the weight over two people. Aside from that Rafts theoretically are a lot easier to deal with if things start getting a bit hairy.

What sort of buoyancy aids are we looking at, self inflating, in which case we need to look at extra cartridges etc for inflating them after a few times in, or perm inflated/foam - packing will be a problem???

One thing we'll need to check on with the airline is that we'll defiantely be able to put all the kit in without them getting too excited seeing axes, knives etc when they scan the luggage.

Does anyone fancy meeting up for a weekend beginning of the new year, say feb, for a night camping, have a few beers and get to know each other. If so where do we want to go, I'm happy to travel but it probably needs to be reasonably central.

 

[bambodoggy]

I'd say to go for the permanant ones or what you save with bulk you'll make up with gas cartridges....also if you go in and are being bashed about it's best not to worry about pulling toggles. you can get quite thin/light ones nowadays.... and although bulky they weight next to nothing.

There's a meet up at the end of Jan in Ashdown....a fair few of us will be there (well, I will be anyway!!! lol) why don't you come along to that?

 

[arctic hobo]

Glad you agree about the satellite phone As you say, 10 years ago no one would have even considered it. I have to say that that's the approach I'm trying to give to this trip... it seems ridiculous how much namby pambying goes on - as bushcrafters I imagine you feel the same :?:
Thanks a lot for the GPS offer Phil... I was thinking that one would be a good idea.
Thanks Moonraker for the flight info. I have reservations about low cost airlines but it's up to the group not up to me. Also if you've been to Torp, you'll know it is miles and miles from absolutely anywhere, and there are no connecting flights. However £78 from Helsinki seems too good to miss - is this including tax?
James, you're right, we can share kit and hire kit. However be careful you don't get ripped off. A buoyancy aid is only £30, and the hire ones are much poorer (if they get hit they lose buoyancy, so old ones are useless). It's up to you. The rest is a good idea to hire though... I expect it will end up costing a quite a bit if we buy it.
As regards maps, I can get 1:100,000 coverage of the whole area, and larger scale still in some area. If anyone wants to buy them himself, have a look at www.sgu.se. I haven't found a UK distributor.
Lithril, buoyancy aids are foam, and will help you float. Lifejackets are full of air, and will ensure your head stays above water, but are very hard to swim in and need to be blown up. It's a tricky decision as if you whack your head you can't pull the string on your lifejacket, but if you're in a buoyancy aid you may end up face down. You die either way. However you are only really likely to go unconscious in rapids, which are always shallow. Lifejackets have the advantage of being less restrictive, but once you inflate them that's it, they stay that way. I'm visualising bushcraft knives + inflated lifejackets = oh dear.
I was thinking of rubber rafts as multi person - about 4 in each? Not sure if that's the same as what you lot are thinking of :?:
The main trouble is that they are much less comfortable having no seat you must sit awkwardly and use a stupid paddle rather than a kayak paddle. And if we're carrying pre-inflated boats or very heavy gas cartridges then it'll be worse than a light small folding canoe. I am still thinking that canoes are better.
I have taken an axe and knife to Norway several times in the hold luggage and never had problems, although spot checks by customs might be awkward. Perhaps someone who knows the law could advise us here.
I'm afraid I'm not up for any meetups until after next August, as I will be very very busy until then. After that I'd love to meet you guys, have some beers and camp

 

[willie]

i would suggest the people that are defo goin should get to gether and go for like a day white water rafting and canoeing to ensure people know wot to do ,but just a suggestion :?:

 

[Lithril]

I'm almost definately going to be at the Ashdown meetup so I'll see you there. So what sort of clothings recommended for the environment and expedition? obviously warm and durable are key points but packability and weight will be too.

 

[Lithril]

I was thinking of rubber rafts as multi person - about 4 in each? Not sure if that's the same as what you lot are thinking of :?:
The main trouble is that they are much less comfortable having no seat you must sit awkwardly and use a stupid paddle rather than a kayak paddle. And if we're carrying pre-inflated boats or very heavy gas cartridges then it'll be worse than a light small folding canoe. I am still thinking that canoes are better.

I was more thinking that the foldup canoes I think can be split into frame and coverings, hence splitting the weight, the rafts have to go as a whole, so one person is going to get the whole weight. Another bonus to the canoes is that they can be a lot quicker when needed.

 

[arctic hobo]

Yes, good points. And as to clothing, it should not be too cold - I think the important thing will be just not to take too many clothes. I never take a change of clothes for a weekend out, but many people I know would take at least that. There's no need to change your clothes all the time, and it saves a huge amount of weight.