"Elvenising" my equipment.
- Thread starter Rain man
- Start date
I used to practice going out into the woods with little more than I had in my pockets and staying out for a couple of nights. In those days we called the game "Survival Training" and I wrote for a mag called SWAT
It could be I was doing things wrong but I was often uncomfortable, though I did survive
rolleyes: )....these days, where the situation allows it, I am reknowned for carting far too much gear...a great deal of it for use if someone comes along who has too little kit!
When I go away for a weekend I will often need two or more trips to carry in all my gear, "sharing gear" and "things to play with"...
When I go on exped for a month or so I can get everything into a 70liter rucksack with room left over for things to bring back as prezzies etc.
I am getting older (maybe a little wiser) and I like my comfort so I trim my kit according to what I plan to do! Careful Planning is a good way to get the balance right.....
It could be I was doing things wrong but I was often uncomfortable, though I did survive
rolleyes: )....these days, where the situation allows it, I am reknowned for carting far too much gear...a great deal of it for use if someone comes along who has too little kit! When I go away for a weekend I will often need two or more trips to carry in all my gear, "sharing gear" and "things to play with"...
When I go on exped for a month or so I can get everything into a 70liter rucksack with room left over for things to bring back as prezzies etc.
I am getting older (maybe a little wiser) and I like my comfort so I trim my kit according to what I plan to do! Careful Planning is a good way to get the balance right.....
Sure, but that's basically what I said, you took it out of context by not taking the second part of the sentence into account:
So if sneakers/trainers are up to the job, which they can be if your load is light enough and the shoes are durable enough, they fit perfectly in my view of going lightweight. If lightweight would really be about taking as little as possible, you'd be taking nothing at all... Hello nudists!
Anyway, I think we've got the same idea about it Johnboy, with the difference being that I include safety in the lightweight package...
New Zealand, serously New Zealand. That is like trying to compare a hike in the highlands to Everest. There is a famous one about a ranger/mountian rescue person hiking past some people, he stopped and said you are not set up for this terrian. They stood together on the top of the mountain, in bright sunshine, and the ranger went oh dear. They were removed from the snow storm 7 days later. The ranger died I think, and no one walked away intact.
Also lightweight, and ultra-lightweight hiking refer to your pack weight. The point is to carry less weight, so you do not need boots etc, so you get lighter. Think it works like this, standard is 15kg, and above. Lightweight is 10kg, and ultraweight is 5kg.
Also they hunted, gathered, and burned, we have to carry that stuff in.
Now I know were I know your face from. Been bugging me.
How about this for an outfit to go into the mountains in spring or early summer
http://www.iceman.it/en/equipment plus this http://www.iceman.it/en/clothing
It should of worked, pity he didn't have a beacon :11doh:
http://www.iceman.it/en/equipment plus this http://www.iceman.it/en/clothing
It should of worked, pity he didn't have a beacon :11doh:
Yes, but he was murdered, he didn't die of exposure. His gear and skills were just fine for the environment. It was the arrow in the back that got him...
One of the important things to remember when out and about is that the less you carry, the more you enjoy the hike. The more you carry, the more you enjoy the camping.
I think one of the most important way to pare down the weight is to stop the obsession most have on this site for carrying a multitude of sharps. One good strong fixed blade and a small neck knife or folder should be plenty. Unless you are doing some major construction you really don't need the axe, saw, machete, 3 fixed blades, leatherman, crook knife and all the rest.
Also traditional means heavy any way you measure it. Wool, ventile, leather are heavy. They are lovely, comfortable and stylish but they are heavy and a pain to dry out.
Traditional water bottles and canteens are heavy. A water bladder is small, light and works great.
Thermarest mattresses are heavy and you need to bring a repair kit with them. Closed foam is lighter and way more durable (but bulkier) (like the thermarest Z-rest).
I love my old Duluth Pack, wool pants, m65 jacket and the rest but when I am out for any length of time it is all about silnylon, goretex and titanium.
There is a reason man invented all these space age materials and gadgets-because they are light and work well.
FarPoint
All those who wander are not lost-JRR Tolkien.
I think one of the most important way to pare down the weight is to stop the obsession most have on this site for carrying a multitude of sharps. One good strong fixed blade and a small neck knife or folder should be plenty. Unless you are doing some major construction you really don't need the axe, saw, machete, 3 fixed blades, leatherman, crook knife and all the rest.
Also traditional means heavy any way you measure it. Wool, ventile, leather are heavy. They are lovely, comfortable and stylish but they are heavy and a pain to dry out.
Traditional water bottles and canteens are heavy. A water bladder is small, light and works great.
Thermarest mattresses are heavy and you need to bring a repair kit with them. Closed foam is lighter and way more durable (but bulkier) (like the thermarest Z-rest).
I love my old Duluth Pack, wool pants, m65 jacket and the rest but when I am out for any length of time it is all about silnylon, goretex and titanium.
There is a reason man invented all these space age materials and gadgets-because they are light and work well.
FarPoint
All those who wander are not lost-JRR Tolkien.
I think "iceman" mentioned by dogwood was most likely a bronze age Harley-Davidson rider. Think about it. He was wearing leathers, had tatoos, was carrying a knife, and had a small bag of weed. And the final clincher - - he was apparently killed by a rival gang.
Just a pet theory of mine based on the available evidence.
Just a pet theory of mine based on the available evidence.
Rain man, if you haven't read it yet then 'Woodcraft and Camping' by George W. Sears 'Nessmuk', is available to download for free from the download section on this forum.
There is much here which will be of interest to you, lightweight gear lists and natural materials. Once you've flicked through the first few pages search for 'Nessmuk' in the internets to find a wealth of like minded folks posting about their experiences with 'Nessmuk' packs, tools etc.
Download:
Woodcraft and Camping
"George Washington Sears was a sportswriter for Forest and Stream magazine in the 1880s and an early conservationist. His stories, appearing under the pen name, "Nessmuk" popularized self-guided canoe camping tours of the Adirondack lakes in open, lightweight solo canoes and what is today called ultralight camping."
There is much here which will be of interest to you, lightweight gear lists and natural materials. Once you've flicked through the first few pages search for 'Nessmuk' in the internets to find a wealth of like minded folks posting about their experiences with 'Nessmuk' packs, tools etc.
Download:
Woodcraft and Camping
One of the most mysterious and fascinating things about his killing was the killers left behind the copper axe he was carrying -- an item of great value at the time.
On course, based on the theory above, the killers did take his Harley...
Probably as good a theory as some that were banded about. Now, I won't be able to think of him without seeing the Harley.... Was there a Harley-Mammoth parked somewhere I think that there is a "cultural" element to that idea that we need a lot of stuff to survive.
We in "the West" are used to have lots of stuff around us to do everything for us. Look in your kitchen, how many knives have you got in there, how many saucepans, then there is the washing machine, the dish washer, the cooker.... then we are also used to get someone "to fix it" when something goes pear shaped, we get on the phone to get rescued from the leaky washing machine...All these things together make us dependent on"stuff".
And then, we like our comfort, don't we: its easy to keep warm, to get clean water, plenty of food...We don't need to make any efforts at all, apart from having to pay for it all
I think it applies to our attitudes to being outdoor: we bring our indoor attitudes and our fears with us, the more so the less experienced we are. So we want to bring our comfort, our warmth, our easy food, our clean water..
We are not used to having to make an effort and to spend time to find the food, build the fire, boil the water: it all takes time and time in our "normal" (if you can call it that) daily life is something we are not used to spend on these tasks. And we are not used to rescue ourselves....
The modern life we lead makes us dependent on a system designed to extract wealth, not to make us independent. Living in the woods is the opposite, we need to develop self reliance and belief in ourselves and that takes time.
I'm thoroughly enjoying this thread 
It's exactly this kind of discussion that brought me to BcUK in the first place
My tuppence halfpenny worth,
They all wore the clothes they lived in, not just went out into the woods to play in.
Get used to being comfortable in natural materials, get used to their good points and bad.
You won't need to carry three pairs of socks and underthings for a few days out if they're pure wool or silk, these won't smell, go sweaty and bacteria ridden.
Similarly wool trousers, find good 'hard' (that's tightly woven but soft handling, like high quality ghillie suits/ shooting outfits are made from) woollen ones, these are pretty much bomb proof, thorn proof, spark proof, and need a lot of rain or wading through a burn to soak. Even then, when wet, they'll still be warm and windstopping.
Linen is a lovely fabric to wear, and it doesn't need to look like a crushed rag. Wear it, wash it, wear it and wash it and the fibres will develop microscopic fractures that allow it to flex instead of creasing, it doesn't like hard sharp folds because that's where it will split eventually after years of creasing on one point. (the Queen still uses Queen Victoria's table covers and napkins because the linen is carefully rolled when not in use, not folded ) this is true for hemp cloth, ramie and European nettle too.
Cotton is just bad news if it's damp and cold in our climate. It gets wet and it stays wet, it's a thirsty fabric, and it can chill you to the bone.
I know most folks here will have the obligatory denims, lightweight, and they are very, very good, but it's that cotton again. Get wet and you'll stay that way. These are meant to be layered with waterproofs when the weather fails. All adds weight. Hemp or linen cloth trousers in Summer are very comfortable indeed.
If you really want to Elvenise your outfit why not make and wear a Birrus Britannicus and fasten it with a good leather belt ? So highly thought of by the Romans that it became a high quality export item to the Empire from Britain Warm, sheds the rain, won't burn with sparks, comfortable to wear and easy to work in if belted. All good But the classic wool shirt, like the swannis, are excellent, and no one bats an eyelid at them, while a cloak still raises a, "huh? ".
Learn to eat simply, the old Highland drovers carried oats, the native Americans parched corn. Both of these can be eaten dry if absolutely necessary but will cook up easily in water to make a warm comforting, filling meal, They are also an excellent base if you chance on something tasty in your travels After all, that's part of why we're out there Lightweight noodles work, dried sausage, good hard cheddar, muesli bars (can be broken up in water and made into a hot porridge ) All one pot, one spoon wonders. Take a packet of sweeties too, surprising how much a sweet toffee can improve your mood.
Apart from my Ti mug and spork, the only other really modern bit of kit that I'd pack would be a couple of weigh nothing space blankets ( two for a £ just now). Totally waterproof, windproof and excellent warm you up wrap if needed.
Wool hat or buff, whatever, and mitts (if you can find the ones with the fold backfinger piece they are excellently practical ) with long cuffs,can make a huge difference to comfort levels.
I haven't added any waterproofs, but to be honest, in this day and age of such excellent fabric technology, I think anyone who braves our hills without them is off his trolley. Even the cheapest, weigh nothing, cagoule and trousers can save lives, and greatly increase our comfort levels, when the skies really decide to open up.
Our islands have a maritime climate, rain is pretty much a given. Old fashioned oilskins, and the horrendously expensive and kind of fragile oiled silk, are very, very good, but they have really been superceded. Oiled fish skin jacket weaing MacAlpin may have claimed a throne, (well really, who would you vote for as king of Scots ? the man who turned up in embroidered velvet or the one dressed for the weather ) but I bet he'd have appreciated Goretex
I love ventile, but oh dear it's so slow to dry off, even if it does wear so quietly and comfortably.
As I said, just my 2 and a half P worth
cheers,
Toddy
It's exactly this kind of discussion that brought me to BcUK in the first place
My tuppence halfpenny worth,
They all wore the clothes they lived in, not just went out into the woods to play in.
Get used to being comfortable in natural materials, get used to their good points and bad.
You won't need to carry three pairs of socks and underthings for a few days out if they're pure wool or silk, these won't smell, go sweaty and bacteria ridden.
Similarly wool trousers, find good 'hard' (that's tightly woven but soft handling, like high quality ghillie suits/ shooting outfits are made from) woollen ones, these are pretty much bomb proof, thorn proof, spark proof, and need a lot of rain or wading through a burn to soak. Even then, when wet, they'll still be warm and windstopping.
Linen is a lovely fabric to wear, and it doesn't need to look like a crushed rag. Wear it, wash it, wear it and wash it and the fibres will develop microscopic fractures that allow it to flex instead of creasing, it doesn't like hard sharp folds because that's where it will split eventually after years of creasing on one point. (the Queen still uses Queen Victoria's table covers and napkins because the linen is carefully rolled when not in use, not folded ) this is true for hemp cloth, ramie and European nettle too.
Cotton is just bad news if it's damp and cold in our climate. It gets wet and it stays wet, it's a thirsty fabric, and it can chill you to the bone.
I know most folks here will have the obligatory denims, lightweight, and they are very, very good, but it's that cotton again. Get wet and you'll stay that way. These are meant to be layered with waterproofs when the weather fails. All adds weight. Hemp or linen cloth trousers in Summer are very comfortable indeed.
If you really want to Elvenise your outfit why not make and wear a Birrus Britannicus and fasten it with a good leather belt ? So highly thought of by the Romans that it became a high quality export item to the Empire from Britain
Warm, sheds the rain, won't burn with sparks, comfortable to wear and easy to work in if belted. All good But the classic wool shirt, like the swannis, are excellent, and no one bats an eyelid at them, while a cloak still raises a, "huh? ".Learn to eat simply, the old Highland drovers carried oats, the native Americans parched corn. Both of these can be eaten dry if absolutely necessary but will cook up easily in water to make a warm comforting, filling meal, They are also an excellent base if you chance on something tasty in your travels
After all, that's part of why we're out there Lightweight noodles work, dried sausage, good hard cheddar, muesli bars (can be broken up in water and made into a hot porridge ) All one pot, one spoon wonders. Take a packet of sweeties too, surprising how much a sweet toffee can improve your mood.Apart from my Ti mug and spork, the only other really modern bit of kit that I'd pack would be a couple of weigh nothing space blankets ( two for a £ just now). Totally waterproof, windproof and excellent warm you up wrap if needed.
Wool hat or buff, whatever, and mitts (if you can find the ones with the fold backfinger piece they are excellently practical ) with long cuffs,can make a huge difference to comfort levels.
I haven't added any waterproofs, but to be honest, in this day and age of such excellent fabric technology, I think anyone who braves our hills without them is off his trolley. Even the cheapest, weigh nothing, cagoule and trousers can save lives, and greatly increase our comfort levels, when the skies really decide to open up.
Our islands have a maritime climate, rain is pretty much a given. Old fashioned oilskins, and the horrendously expensive and kind of fragile oiled silk, are very, very good, but they have really been superceded. Oiled fish skin jacket weaing MacAlpin may have claimed a throne, (well really, who would you vote for as king of Scots ? the man who turned up in embroidered velvet or the one dressed for the weather
) but I bet he'd have appreciated Goretex I love ventile, but oh dear it's so slow to dry off, even if it does wear so quietly and comfortably.
As I said, just my 2 and a half P worth
cheers,
Toddy
I like the idea of elvenising
I'm of the view that it's not the kit or lack thereof that gets people in trouble, it's the experience to know what kit is appropriate and to use that kit well. "Elves" are experts in their environment (and, of course, also fictional!) I see the OP's aspiration being to reflect that harmony of knowledge and environment.
To say not having this piece of kit will be dangerous in such and such a situation may be correct, but IMHO misses the point. I don't take my ice axe into the local woods for a summer weekend.
You don't need to be prepared for everything, just equipped to mitigate the "risks" you might face. Assessing those risks is about experience not bravado.
Scoops
I'm of the view that it's not the kit or lack thereof that gets people in trouble, it's the experience to know what kit is appropriate and to use that kit well. "Elves" are experts in their environment (and, of course, also fictional!) I see the OP's aspiration being to reflect that harmony of knowledge and environment.
To say not having this piece of kit will be dangerous in such and such a situation may be correct, but IMHO misses the point. I don't take my ice axe into the local woods for a summer weekend.
You don't need to be prepared for everything, just equipped to mitigate the "risks" you might face. Assessing those risks is about experience not bravado.
Scoops
What would the Celts, and even the Romans have used?
Is cotton the only choice?
I know the Mongols, used to use silk. Admittedly that was for protection, but they rode a lot so does it perform long term.
Would they have wanted Goretex, or would they have gone 'Lets get over there, start a fire, and bed down for the night.'.
Is cotton the only choice?
I know the Mongols, used to use silk. Admittedly that was for protection, but they rode a lot so does it perform long term.
Would they have wanted Goretex, or would they have gone 'Lets get over there, start a fire, and bed down for the night.'.
It's two things, both fibres and climate.
Our cool, damp climate...........Ireland is as wet or the Pacific coast of North America, NZ and Japan have places that are as wet too though.
Cotton is a lovely fibre, and a beautiful cloth, but it's a thirsty fibre, it gets damp and it holds onto it. It's just not the best clothing for the climate. It's so common only because it's cheap.
Ventile is made from long staple very high quality cotton fibres, and look at how much the price jumps because of that and the tightness of the weave.
It's not the cold that kills in the UK but exposure that saps heat and willpower and all comfort.
You can work sodden wet, been there done that, lost a stone and a half in three weeks though, but you have to keep moving, you have to keep active, keeping that wet warm enoguh not to chill to the core.
Out and about the way we do, we want to enjoy the whole experience, and though effort is a big part of that, to never be warm, never be comfortable, to be unable to sleep properly, is only setting oneself up for a huge downer.
The OP had a notion to do an Elf with his kit and clothing. Well the Elves were renowned for their naturalness, and their love of high quality materials, an appreciation of skillful workmanship, ..........sounds like a bushcrafter to me
atb,
Toddy
Our cool, damp climate...........Ireland is as wet or the Pacific coast of North America, NZ and Japan have places that are as wet too though.
Cotton is a lovely fibre, and a beautiful cloth, but it's a thirsty fibre, it gets damp and it holds onto it. It's just not the best clothing for the climate. It's so common only because it's cheap.
Ventile is made from long staple very high quality cotton fibres, and look at how much the price jumps because of that and the tightness of the weave.
It's not the cold that kills in the UK but exposure that saps heat and willpower and all comfort.
You can work sodden wet, been there done that, lost a stone and a half in three weeks though, but you have to keep moving, you have to keep active, keeping that wet warm enoguh not to chill to the core.
Out and about the way we do, we want to enjoy the whole experience, and though effort is a big part of that, to never be warm, never be comfortable, to be unable to sleep properly, is only setting oneself up for a huge downer.
The OP had a notion to do an Elf with his kit and clothing. Well the Elves were renowned for their naturalness, and their love of high quality materials, an appreciation of skillful workmanship, ..........sounds like a bushcrafter to me
atb,
Toddy
Thank you all for having an opinion, it's why I love this site!
Yes Scoops your bang on! Last year me and a like minded friend ventured into the woods on a Shadowhawk tracking beginner and intermediate course, and it enhanced one aspect of my love of the outdoors much more than I had expected. That feeling of understanding your environment (like understanding what all those lovely patterns made by animals mean) brings you closer with your environment. Max (the instructor to all those not yet in the know...shame on you) told us that some people believe that we are just a guest in the woods and must treat it so. But he belives that we should think of it as our home, and treat it so. Meaning that with the right knowledge we will feel at home in that environment (hey bit like elves eh?). I fullly agree with that view, always have. So yes Scoops "I see the OP's aspiration being to reflect that harmony of knowledge and environment" that's where my brain was headed.
Thank you for the comments on clothing, this is one which I am really struggling with. I loved the look of the Swazi tahr beacuse it is Goretex but had a soft finish (hate noisey clothing remember) but wasn't sure about it round a camp fire. I'm not exactly gentle with myself in the woods either and so thorns etc worried me. I bought a sweedish snow smock and dyed it green and waterproofed it, Love it! even thinking of making a Multicam one... but the material is still cotton based so therein lies the problem again. I bought a poncho for if it really buckets down but its a little rustly and a pain to work in. It is a solid tarp back-up if caught out, metal eyelets etc, but the heavy duty build makes it very heavy for what it is. I had considered the taboo of outdoor attaire; the Cloak! Especially when considering its multi-purposes Shell layer, something to sit on, night time blanket etc. If I found the right wool I still may try it. After all I usually dont see a soul when out in the woods (hell thats usually half the reason I go!) So any social awkwardness wont be an issue. If I do come across a dog walker I'm sure they'll just think I'm a crazy person and steer clear.
Yes Scoops your bang on! Last year me and a like minded friend ventured into the woods on a Shadowhawk tracking beginner and intermediate course, and it enhanced one aspect of my love of the outdoors much more than I had expected. That feeling of understanding your environment (like understanding what all those lovely patterns made by animals mean) brings you closer with your environment. Max (the instructor to all those not yet in the know...shame on you) told us that some people believe that we are just a guest in the woods and must treat it so. But he belives that we should think of it as our home, and treat it so. Meaning that with the right knowledge we will feel at home in that environment (hey bit like elves eh?). I fullly agree with that view, always have. So yes Scoops "I see the OP's aspiration being to reflect that harmony of knowledge and environment" that's where my brain was headed.
Thank you for the comments on clothing, this is one which I am really struggling with. I loved the look of the Swazi tahr beacuse it is Goretex but had a soft finish (hate noisey clothing remember) but wasn't sure about it round a camp fire. I'm not exactly gentle with myself in the woods either and so thorns etc worried me. I bought a sweedish snow smock and dyed it green and waterproofed it, Love it! even thinking of making a Multicam one... but the material is still cotton based so therein lies the problem again. I bought a poncho for if it really buckets down but its a little rustly and a pain to work in. It is a solid tarp back-up if caught out, metal eyelets etc, but the heavy duty build makes it very heavy for what it is. I had considered the taboo of outdoor attaire; the Cloak!
Especially when considering its multi-purposes Shell layer, something to sit on, night time blanket etc. If I found the right wool I still may try it. After all I usually dont see a soul when out in the woods (hell thats usually half the reason I go!) So any social awkwardness wont be an issue. If I do come across a dog walker I'm sure they'll just think I'm a crazy person and steer clear. Ok , you lot can be an 'Elf' if you want...
Me??....
"Saruman and a large Orc stand in the rising sun in an inner chamber of Orthanc.
Saruman: "Do you know how the Orcs first came into being? They were Elves once, taken by the dark powers. Tortured and mutilated…"
Saruman: "… a ruined and terrible form of life. And now… perfected: my fighting Uruk-hai."
Saruman: "Hunt them down! Do not stop until they are found. You do not know pain, you do not know fear. You will taste man-flesh!"
I obvously have issues and a dark side.
Me??....
"Saruman and a large Orc stand in the rising sun in an inner chamber of Orthanc.
Saruman: "Do you know how the Orcs first came into being? They were Elves once, taken by the dark powers. Tortured and mutilated…"
Saruman: "… a ruined and terrible form of life. And now… perfected: my fighting Uruk-hai."
Saruman: "Hunt them down! Do not stop until they are found. You do not know pain, you do not know fear. You will taste man-flesh!"
I obvously have issues and a dark side.
