Early Britons: Have we underestimated our ancestors? Horizon tonight

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boatman

Bushcrafter (boy, I've got a lot to say!)
Feb 20, 2007
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Much later on in the iron Age it is suggested that some visitors to a market at Meare, one of the Lake Villages near Glastonbury, didn't erect huts but just used windbreaks during their stay. But of course a house of some sort is essential and i wouldn't pretend otherwise.
 

tombear

On a new journey
Jul 9, 2004
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Can you recall why they think windbreaks rather than say the sort of roofed shelter where a row of poles are erected and then the whippy ends are bent over for the roof? I'm assuming they were short rows of post holes so not pens of some sort. From my crude bit of surfing I can find lots of references to them as windbreaks but nowt about why they think they are . I'd be very interested in any experimental archeology they have done. It's just that where ever I've lived the winds seam to come from all sorts of direction, normally the opposite side of any fire I'm sat at...

its this sort of practical stuff I find is most useful when I'm out doing my own faffing about.

ATB

Tom (firmly off the Romans and back on topic I hope ;))


PS after reading Mary's links I have a strange urge to grow Naked Barley. Now showing yet more of my ignorance if I was to grow that near the bere we are planning to put in in the spring they would cross pollinate and the resulting seed would be a hybrid?
 
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boatman

Bushcrafter (boy, I've got a lot to say!)
Feb 20, 2007
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Of course in the past golden age the gentle zephyrs blew always from the South. Actually tombear I have no idea but the idea of just a windbreak is intriguing and one would seek a natural one according to the wind direction as one might do if sleeping out today. But then there are the multi-coloured windbreaks seen on British beaches not always shielding people from the wind as it changes direction but people rarely move them or themselves.
 

tombear

On a new journey
Jul 9, 2004
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Privacy screens? a purely social thing? when In doubt, Ritual? or whatever the term they used to use on Time Team rather than say , "no idea Tony"?

i wonder if the fixed wind break could have been coupled with one or more hurdles could have made a efficient wind break what ever direction the wind was coming in? The fixed, post holed one being something to tie or even just lean a hurdle or skin covered frame to. And if I'm jumping to conclusions that far with two walls protecting you from the wind, why not a simple roof to make a open fronted shelter? Would it be worth the effort.

ATB

Tom

This looks interesting although the long words are starting to hurt..

http://www.researchgate.net/profile...structures/links/555b517208ae8f66f3ad5e42.pdf
 
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Old Bones

Settler
Oct 14, 2009
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East Anglia
Interesting link (and reminds me to set up an acount, been meaning to do that for a while). Now the bloke could have written that it was cold, and even though those cavemen were even harder than Geordies in the winter, you probably needed some warm clothes. Of course saying that doesn't get you a decent impact paper into a journal, but thats the way of life for an academic these days.

I agree - if I'm freezing my butt off trying to find enough food for the winter, then any fool can be (really) uncomfortable.
 

Tengu

Full Member
Jan 10, 2006
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The Ona Indians of South America used windbreaks almost exculsivley.

(They seemed to know about branch wigwams but those were mens lodges and not everyday homes.)

in bad weather these were erected at a slant.

I will say these guys were tough as old boots...
 

boatman

Bushcrafter (boy, I've got a lot to say!)
Feb 20, 2007
2,444
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Remember the inhabitants of Tierra del Fuego who were mostly naked but used fire and huddling very effectively. When near naked people, especially women, were coerced into unsuitable garments that is when they began to die of exposure.

Read Smoke in the Lanes by Dominic Reeve to see that near contemporary open air dwellers used fire. The fire that was the first thing kicked about by Police moving them on.
 

Palaeocory

Forager
Thanks for the link to the Chu paper! I haven't read it yet, but in 'How to Think like a Neanderthal' (Wynn and Coolidge 2012), the authors cite research that says that the 'lowest air temperature one could survive if naked to the elements' for modern humans is 10.5 degrees (for Neanderthals it's estimated to be 8, which surprisingly isn't a whole lot of difference)

Unfortunately for the UK that's pretty much all year :( (ok it says it's 16 degrees right now but it sure feels like 10...)
 
?These people of the past could easily have lived in roofed shelters which would have left no impression on the land.

When we travel on the tundra edge we often come across old tent circles where stones have been placed around the edges of skin / bark shelters to hold them down. Where no stones are available then wooden stakes were used but are often rotted.

Tepee shaped structures are still used sometimes up here for shelters when out hunting/travelling and they leave no trace other than stones if they were used.

Archeologists here and in the UK appear to have the view that if they can't find it then it didn't exist.
 

tombear

On a new journey
Jul 9, 2004
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I must admit that not knowing much about prehistory I do have trouble with the idea why you'd have a wall and no roof. I know it's still done , see the examples mentioned previously, but anywhere you get precipitation ..... Surely the most instinctive thing in the world I to pull something over your head when things are dropping on it. I've seen shots of chimps doing it with leafy branches. Lack of materials? No precipitation ( being British I have deep trouble contemplating deserts. I start getting freaked out if it hasn't rained for 5 days). Is there what I'll call for want of a better term a cultural laziness that says, yeah that's just enough work so we won't actually die, i'll not waste anymore energy/resources just to make myself more comfortable?

Ok I could be googling it but I'd be interested to know what a practical orientated group rather than pure academics think.

ATB

Tom

PS found this which has helped me get my head around a windbreak using culture in a area where precipitation is very low

https://books.google.co.uk/books?id...q=windbreaks and huddling aboriginals&f=false
 
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John Fenna

Lifetime Member & Maker
Oct 7, 2006
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I think we have underestimated our ancestors - we try to interpret their lives from incomplete evidence and a totally alien culture. We have no real idea of their Spiritual beliefs, cultural values or technologies. As the culmination of evolution "Modern Man" thinks of himself as the most superior - but then so did the Romans, the Nazis and the Conquistadors and we have an idea of how "degenerate" their societies were...
"Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence" - we cannot assume that our ancestors were "less" than we were - just a whole lot different in their technologies, culture and belief systems ... and quite probably a whole lot more advanced than modern man in a whole lot of ways!
The fact that their lives seem to have done less damage to the planet than ours tend to says to me that perhaps they were a more advanced society than the current one!
 

Palaeocory

Forager
Archeologists here and in the UK appear to have the view that if they can't find it then it didn't exist.

Sometimes some archaeologists have that attitude with certain things - I think when it comes to shelters and clothing though, the consensus (assumption) among archaeologists (Palaeolithic archaeologists who deal with this anyway) is that people had those two things even before the evolution of modern humans 200,000 years ago - just because it would be pretty weird if they didn't.

It is sometimes the attitude you find though... my research has to do with demonstrating complex cognition and language ability in pre-human ancestors. By the time of the Mesolithic, and previous to that the Upper Palaeolithic, humans are cooked. They're completely within modern human variation we see historically or ethnographically today in thier lifeways, in their intelligence etc.

What I find hard to convince people of is that earlier species such as Neanderthals were basically as human as the moderns, and that they had language. People say 'but humans have fancy cave paintings and beads, and we're so smart and special'. Other species are our cousins though - we came from the same ancestors who were also 'smart' and made incredibly complex stone tools. It's hard to find 'signs' of complex thoughts, and demonstrate how that connects material to cognition. My research concerns finding a way to do that... my experiment is in October!
 

Goatboy

Full Member
Jan 31, 2005
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I'm with Mr. Fenna on this point. Though I think that neither we nor they were "better" just different.
If you took someone from say the bronze age and plonked them down in a major city now they'd have as much trouble adjusting as a modern city dweller catapulted back then. Though I think the self relience of the bronze age bod may help him out over the pandered modern human (BCUK members exepted :D ).
Someone once said that trying to build the past was like trying to do a million piece jigsaw with only some pieces the right side up and no picture on the box.
Some of the work where folk from "primative" cultures who have been brought over to view our past work has given a new perspective. Also, and not wanting to offend any historians is that many are academics. Very bright but are looking out from an ivory tower through lenses at the world. Like the canopy over the Colaseum (spelling sorry) in Rome. They got some circus folk with practicle experience who came up with a way to do it that fitted and worked that the academics couldn't figure out. Like the way my mate Belzeebob23 showed a rather famous bronze age specialist a different way to afix a bronze axe head to the shaft that made sense and he hadn't thought of before. Belzeebob is in haulage and a whiz with ropes and trying stuff down, but 'till that point had no working knowledge of bronze axe heads.

Sent via smoke-signal from a woodland in Scotland.
 

Palaeocory

Forager
Also, and not wanting to offend any historians is that many are academics. Very bright but are looking out from an ivory tower through lenses at the world. Like the canopy over the Colaseum (spelling sorry) in Rome. They got some circus folk with practicle experience who came up with a way to do it that fitted and worked that the academics couldn't figure out.

You said academic like it's an insult...? Like, if you spend a lot of time studying something, you're opinion has less value than 'common sense'. I really get offended by the anti-intellectual attitude that is so pervasive these days... it actually hurts my feelings quite a bit :(

The 'practical' people that figure stuff out are academics too. They're engaging in research. I have formal education, therefore I'm stuck-up and divorced from the real world?

I've never met an academic who thinks they're in an ivory tower. I'm certainly not in an ivory tower, and none of my archaeologist friends are. We are approachable people, no different from 'practical' people (we are practical too!!)... of course different people with different skills bring different information to research. It's not just a divide between academics and non academics, it's just 'different areas of expertise', like an archaeologist vs a bushcraft expert versus a geologist vs someone who works in forestry.
 

Goatboy

Full Member
Jan 31, 2005
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Scotland
You said academic like it's an insult...? Like, if you spend a lot of time studying something, you're opinion has less value than 'common sense'. I really get offended by the anti-intellectual attitude that is so pervasive these days... it actually hurts my feelings quite a bit :(

The 'practical' people that figure stuff out are academics too. They're engaging in research. I have formal education, therefore I'm stuck-up and divorced from the real world?

I've never met an academic who thinks they're in an ivory tower. I'm certainly not in an ivory tower, and none of my archaeologist friends are. We are approachable people, no different from 'practical' people (we are practical too!!)... of course different people with different skills bring different information to research. It's not just a divide between academics and non academics, it's just 'different areas of expertise', like an archaeologist vs a bushcraft expert versus a geologist vs someone who works in forestry.
I wasn't having a pop at academics, in fact the opposite. Many, myself included have a very high opinion of them. We wouldn't have the world we have without them. I was just trying to point out that we shouldn't feel they are infallible. We all to a degree (academics and laymen included) view others via a mirror of our own selves and experiences and sometimes and I saw it in my own field of forestry that someone who has learned from academic sources may not have the mental tools to view things from a practical viewpoint. (A bit like the conversation I had with an incredibly bright chap who worked in our IT department that sent out a two page double sided explanation on how to set the touchscreens into a mode where it would disable them to be safe to clean them without having the computers do all sorts of weird things. My simple approach and answer to him was "Or one could clean them while they.re switched off.") Now I could never do his job; well not without a lot of training and we'd be having a good competition in an IQ score but he just hadn't thought of a practical, simple way of doing it.
Maybe my wording was a little off, my excuse being I was in a hurry as I was on the bus on my phone. So generalising for brevity sake.
The other side of the coin is that many hold up the "noble savage" as the pinnacle of living with the environment and that we are technological savages destroying the world. Many "primitives" are wasteful and violent, just the same as we are. The point I was getting to in a circuitous way is that we are just all people, brilliant and yet fallible. The pinnacle of our respective times and places yet flawed. And that we shouldn't view anyone as being the apex of knowledge and living either due to study and book learning or millennia of heritage and practical skills.
I know the distrust that learning brings first hand. Many thought I was a studious bookworm in some of the estates and departments I worked in, and I envied the practical skills that they had, so I did my damnedest to learn from them and also to try and pass on what I had. One of the reasons I like it here, they blend of mental and tactile skills shown here together under one canopy has thrilled me for the last 10 years. I'd love to make knives like Hillbill, craft leather like Hamish or make the creations of Bilmo, but I can only do pale imitations of them if at all. Similarly the knowledge of herpetology of Doug, Harvestmans insect knowledge or a plethora of others mental skills leaves me in awe. I have a voracious appetite for knowledge and live surrounded by books and research materials but I know my shortcomings and can only admire the "academics", there's no disdain there from me and I'm sorry if you thought so it wasn't intended, I was just trying to point out (and proving myself to be fallible) that no-one is omnipotent and we're all just human. :eek:
 

Old Bones

Settler
Oct 14, 2009
745
72
East Anglia
that no-one is omnipotent and we're all just human

True, which why 'academics' pretty much never say anything is 100% certain (even climate change scientists use a 95% probability, even though they all certain of mans effect on the climate). In Time Team, Tony Robinson used to joke that Mick and the others used to qualify everthing. He was right, but so were they. We cannot know everything, so 'might be' is a decent way of saying something without looking like an idiot.

In fact, the number of academic archaeologists I've known that live in an 'ivory tower' is tiny (now Classicists and Egyptologists, thats a different story:)). Most are trying to get teaching done whilst do research that will please the Research committee and get stuff published as often as they can. And just because your crunching a lot of numbers does not mean your out of touch either - that information is incrediably valuable (OK, so thats what I did...but I admit I'm not that great at digging).

There are loads of hands on experiments around, for all periods. If your a Roman military specialist, then the Roman Army reenactors are very useful - if only to find out the actual way someone would have laced up their armour. Flint knappers can generally be recognised by their wounds, and there is a shed load of ethnographic research going on for all sorts of periods - from Iron Age farming through to 19th century mining.

We are approachable people, no different from 'practical' people (we are practical too!!)... of course different people with different skills bring different information to research. It's not just a divide between academics and non academics, it's just 'different areas of expertise', like an archaeologist vs a bushcraft expert versus a geologist vs someone who works in forestry.

Well said. Asking sail makers and circus people how to cover the Flavian Amphitheatre makes perfect sense. If your an archaeologist, your seldom trained in engineering - you know from the sources how they might have done it, but you need someone to look at it from an expert angle.

And of course the evidence from experiments has to be examined - 'does that way of making bronze arrow heads match what we found from actual sites?', etc. No good archaeologist ignores evidence from other areas or disciplines - in fact archaeology is pretty much a magpie - taking what it needs from all areas.

And its worth pointing out that while many think that archaeologists tend to either wear tweed or look like Indiana Jones (I should be so lucky), in reality most excavators tend to look like people who work on a building site (it used to mostly be surplus, but these days probably Primark and Screwfix), whilst most desk bound people wear T-Shirts with things like 'Archaeologists Dont Dig Dinosaurs' http://www.cafepress.com/shovelbums.107762035 or old sweaters/sweatshirts with holes in them. Think more Big Bang Theory than Howard Carter. In fact my wife has complained to people that I still have my Institute's Roman Department T-Shirt for 1993, and still wear it (Ok, so its seen better days). Some habits are hard to break!

Of course there is no money in archaeoloogy, which might explain the fashion choices...

Archeologists here and in the UK appear to have the view that if they can't find it then it didn't exist.

John Fenna got there first - "Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence"

In fact most prehistorians are pretty open minded when it comes to stuff like shelter types, etc. Its really tough finding prehistoric remains of such transiant and easily destroyed structures, so until someone recognises one, its difficult to know what your looking for. However, now that people have got their eye in, a lot more seem to be found.

On the other hand, you need some evidence in order to make an argument - just saying 'there could be' isn't quite enough, unless its Theoretical Archaeology, but thats a different story.
 
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Goatboy

Full Member
Jan 31, 2005
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The point I was trying to encapsulate rather badly was that we can all learn from other disciplines and is anyone ever really an "expert"?. One chap I used to know was a law professor but pretty much also considered one of the leading experts on Russian submarines though it wasn't his chosen field a true Le Violon d'Ingres. Yet we get a lot of TV folk presenting themselves as experts in a field (they once read a Collins guide book) and a lazy researcher thought they'll do as they look good on camera. To many programs I've seen have the presenter pontificating "speaking as a... (fix appropriate title here)" every ten minutes throughout the program. (I'm glad I don't have a telly as I find that phrase grating on my nerves these days).
Some of the people I admire the most are real polymaths and so many important leaps have been made by folk pulling knowledge from seemingly unrelated fields together. But folk sometimes get it wrong, or are seen to as time and attitudes change, a bit like Sir Mortimer Wheeler seeing everything as a battle or warfare related as he'd been military chap. It's one of the reasons I try to read or take in as much information as possible, I must admit that precise dates tend not to stick in my head these days but reading of different cultures and how they interlock through time gives me a flavour of history though not the actual recipe.
 

dewi

Full Member
May 26, 2015
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True, which why 'academics' pretty much never say anything is 100% certain (even climate change scientists use a 95% probability, even though they all certain of mans effect on the climate). In Time Team, Tony Robinson used to joke that Mick and the others used to qualify everthing. He was right, but so were they. We cannot know everything, so 'might be' is a decent way of saying something without looking like an idiot.

What has happened to the science of climate change is a perfect example of something else that can just as readily happen in archeology as it can any other study. Sometimes there can be an accepted theory based on current data, but when new data is introduced that puts that theory into doubt, the theory is so widely held in its original form that the new data is rejected.

As very little is known about early civilisations, a lot of things has to be theory. Egyptology experts had decided that the pyramids were built by slaves hauling stones up a huge ramp, only for years later for others to come along and postulate that the pyramid builders were not slaves. Furthermore, the earlier proposed huge ramp theory wouldn't have worked because a)building the ramp would have been more work than building the pyramid and b) there doesn't appear to have been the room to have the ramp in the position suggested. So now archaeologists have brought in civil engineers and modern-day builders who have come up with multiple theories to how the pyramids could have been constructed and some of the theories are not only brilliant, but would make a lot more sense. None of them are categorically true, they are all still theories and we will probably never know the truth unless someone finds some documentation in some form of how they were built.

Back to climate change, the theory was that sea ice was going to decline rapidly and 36 out of 38 computer models agreed the theory was correct. The facts didn't bear this out and the reverse happened, the ice fields expanded to new record highs. The 95% certainty and them 'knowing' what was going to happen didn't change the fact that it didn't happen as predicted and their theory was wrong. Rather than going back to the start and trying to work out how 36 out of 38 computers could have got it completely wrong, rather than admitting that those same computers could have got other models totally wrong, we're media-fed something that is no longer science, but more akin to a religion. The people who argue with this new religion are called 'deniers'. The very use of the term denier means that the science around climate change is no longer science. Science should be a for and against discussion/argument based on the known facts and multiple theories, whereas scientists now use a consensus-seeking process that leads to bias, and that bias is leapt on by politicians who see another tax avenue.

Maybe if more money was pumped into archeology it would attract and encourage more theories, more digs and more recreations and we'd start seeing a much clearer picture of the past. A Time Team episode that always amazes me is the one they did on the London defence ring from WW2. They readily admitted that they knew almost nothing about the sites even though it is within living memory and they had to approach it like any other archaeological dig.
 

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