Early Britons: Have we underestimated our ancestors? Horizon tonight

tombear

On a new journey
Jul 9, 2004
4,494
556
55
Rossendale, Lancashire
Agh! A real historian! That's me and my half @rsed theories finished! I know when I'm outclassed! :D

Great stuff by the way, very clear explanation.

i Must admit that through personal preference I've neglected my more general reading which would give me a deeper and more balanced view and rather concentrated on material culture, especially that relating to the army. Any recommendations for what shows the most current thinking on Roman Britain?

ATB

Tom
 

boatman

Bushcrafter (boy, I've got a lot to say!)
Feb 20, 2007
2,444
8
78
Cornwall
By the time we get to the iron Age and especially the Roman Conquest we are virtually in modern times. All that is required is technological development. But, even in the Mesolithic the seeds of organisation are there along with control of the environment which is a shame for those wanting to imagine a truly free life.

Recent excavations and large area analysis have shown that there was continuity from pre-Roman through to post Dark Ages in britain in some areas. Then there is the problem that villages will tend to have been built where the best place for a village was meaning that the true antiquity of a lot of settlements cannot be established.

An example of the difficulties of this estimating is illustrated by dating from species in ancient hedges. Fifteen species that can be counted and the estimate for oldest hedges is 15x10 meaning that the earliest date from now is about 500 AD. But, in the year 2,500 this would mean that the dated from 1,000 which is obvious nonsense. The only conclusion is that, given the method has any validity, what we think are our oldest hedges could be much older, even Bronze Age, as are some of the Cornish Hedges that are mostly stone rather than plant.
 

Old Bones

Settler
Oct 14, 2009
745
72
East Anglia
I might have been a 'real' archaeologist once, but since I'm at home trying to stop my kids from fighting each other with plastic swords (holidays with the kids, eh?), pretty much everything seems to have ossified.

Britannia is a great start - Frere's book is a bit of a classic, and although a little old, is pretty much the first book you buy as an undergrad. The 1991 edition in pb is just 31p plus postage from Amazon's new and used. Salway's Roman Britain is good (anything by Salway is good), Millet's 'The Romanization of Britain' makes you think, and Jones & Mattingly's Atlas of Roman Britain is very useful (although not that cheap). Mattingly's later book on Roman Britain looks good, but I havn't read it. Dobson and Breeze on Hadrians Wall is useful, and there are any number of books on the military, towns, religion and trade. http://www.roman-britain.org/ is quite handy. In fact have a look at UCL's Archaeology depratments website - they've probably got a reading list or two for the undergrads. In honour of my former lecturer Richard Reece, I should include 'My Roman Britain'. Its not really about archaeology, its more philosphy. £7.95 from Oxbow, but £45 from Amazon! Its has 'things called villas' and 'things called towns'. He is the guy that really taught me (and lots of others) to think outside the box, but its not for everyone.

Frankly, I've been out of the game for a long time, and that, plus havings kids, lack of funds (the two are linked) and lack of space (my wife clamped down on my book buying after the number of them I had came horribly apparent during a house move), means that I'm a bit out of touch on the latest stuff. There is no way I can afford to read all the journals.

If you really want to knock yourself out, then have a look at Oxbow books http://www.oxbowbooks.com/oxbow/ . I havn't been there for years (see above), but it was wonderful. One of the best moments of my research was ringing up (it was the mid 90's, so no internet) and ordering £250 worth of really obscure books, which were coming out of my research budget. Spending other peoples money on books - doesn't get much better!

My younger one is back the 3rd - counting the days....
 

Old Bones

Settler
Oct 14, 2009
745
72
East Anglia
Martin Henig's a really nice bloke, and makes you think (I meant to put his book about Art in RB). He also bought me a drink once, which always helps!

Sounds like one I've got to read! Assemblage is a good read as well, and they were pretty much the first to do an online journal, which makes it much more accessable.
 

richardhomer

Settler
Aug 23, 2012
775
7
STOURBRIDGE
Thank you old bones I've learnt something from your last. Couple of posts. I had always thought that the empie was held together only by the army. Yes I knew that they traded and back handers were given to local leaders and the like. I knew that some of the local people did get a benefit from them being over paid over sexed and over here ! But I had never thought of those things holding the empire together. It much like the British empire in a way
 

richardhomer

Settler
Aug 23, 2012
775
7
STOURBRIDGE
Agh! A real historian! That's me and my half @rsed theories finished! I know when I'm outclassed! :D

Great stuff by the way, very clear explanation.

i Must admit that through personal preference I've neglected my more general reading which would give me a deeper and more balanced view and rather concentrated on material culture, especially that relating to the army. Any recommendations for what shows the most current thinking on Roman Britain?

ATB

Tom

The horrible history book are good 😃
 

dewi

Full Member
May 26, 2015
2,647
13
Cheshire
This thread sounds like Romanists at a conference after about 5 pints...:)

Let me get a couple of whiskies into me and I'll wade back in on this on... not that I disagree with anything you've said, but whisky-fueled interpretation is always fun for a discussion :)
 

Tengu

Full Member
Jan 10, 2006
13,022
1,640
51
Wiltshire
I love Augustan Rome. Handouts and free circus tickets. Whats not to like, eh?

I love all the Classical world, though I will admit I am more Lacadaemonian than Athenian.
 

Old Bones

Settler
Oct 14, 2009
745
72
East Anglia
It much like the British empire in a way

Pax Romana, Pax Britannia!

Empires are tricky. You can conquer, but as Alexander the Great put it, 'only trade can hold it together'. Trade and cash, and comminications (as the excellent 'Worlds Busiest Railway Station on BBC2 reminded us, the railway was there to tie Imperial India together)

And the armies you create can make their own problems. The Army was very expensive, and didn't like to be bored (you dont want bored soldiers if your a Roman Emperor, because thats how you get your throat cut). so invading new places makes sense, especially since the Roman doctrine was 'its ours, we just havn't got there yet'. On the other hand, it can turn into a kind of Ponzi scheme. The more territory, the more resources, and possible taxes, and land for retired soldiers, etc. But that means longer borders, which means more soldiers, and more troops to occupy the region, etc, and the bigger chance of bordering people who really dont like you. And more money you need to spend.

Certainly the British Empire had this sort of problem - lots of red, but lots of places that put you in the red. If it hadn't been for India (which was a huge net producer of cash), the Empire would have been a net drain on resources in lots of territories. And bear in mind that empires are a bit haphazard in their growth - there is seldom a masterplan. The Roman Empire really starts by a relatively small city state going on the rampage, and then consolidating their position. Then rinse and repeat. The empire grew partially because those in charge needed a military victory to boost their political position, because some one needed the nice stuff someone else had, because why not?, etc. By the time Britain gets invaded, the Empire is huge, and every so often there is a certain amount of panic that the whole thing was overextended. Octavian was unhappy about his legions vanishing in the Tutenborg. Tiberius was worried about the Empire being just too big to survive, but Caligula wanted to invade Britain (he just ended up declaring war on Neptune, as you do). Claudius does invade, but the province almost goes under during the Boudiccan uprising. Trajan really goes for expansion, but then Hadrian consolidates, etc. And of course there is Persia. Rome and Persia are the two superpowers going up against each other - and its gets very nasty.

The Roman Army was generally successful because they were professionals, with the kind of logistical support we'd expect today. Yes, lots of tribes etc would have a retinue of warrriors (often posh), and levies. But they tended to have to wander off to get the harvest in, etc. The Romans didn't have to do that. And generally their enemies didn't speed years practicing to do stuff. The famous Josephus quote say it all 'He would not err who described their exercises as battles without blood, and their battles as bloody exercises.' However, they didn't always win, and victory could be expensive. Much better to pay the top people off, and get them to rely on your support. After all, who else is going to get you those nice mosiacs in that new villa? And if your stroppy, then the legions are going to call round - so thats an interesting choice.

However, its all a bit of a con - you have to use the doctrine of concentration of forces, because there are generally a lot more of them than there are of you, and you just hope they dont figure that out. Once your embedded, then its much easier. Local kids join the Army, people get rich enough to go to the Senate, and evryone likes the wine which now cheap enough to import, or make enough money from exporting it to buy pepper and silks from India. And pay for the games to curry favour, to get you elected, to make you rich and powerful, etc.

Ultimately, the people in Britain often thought themselves Roman. By the end they used Roman money, had a church (which was a reinvention of the old imperial cult), had a means of admin in the Roman style, baths and games, and communicated in Latin. St Patrick was educated as a Roman would be. Were they Roman? Thats for them to say, but they often acted as though they were.

As for Horrible Histories - love them. My kids are total fans, and alas, when I talk in schoold, so are other kids (my gory stuff has been preempted by their gory stuff). Have a look on YouTube for the music vids - the Crassus one is ace, and he was indeed 'owned by the Persians', which shows that cash does not always equal military succes.
 
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richardhomer

Settler
Aug 23, 2012
775
7
STOURBRIDGE
[QUOTEAs for Horrible Histories - love them. My kids are total fans, and alas, when I talk in schoold, so are other kids (my gory stuff has been preempted by their gory stuff). Have a look on YouTube for the music vids - the Crassus one is ace, and he was indeed 'owned by the Persians', which shows that cash does not always equal military succes. ][/QUOTE]

My Kids also love them. They love the books. My wife has been reading the books to them for the last two years. They are seven. But they will be in year three when they go back to school in September. They are in the young half of the year group if you understand. So they have had the hooks read to them from year one. They love the show on cbbc too. There is a horrible history's quiz show on at the moment which they love. they even get some of the questions right ! I myself love history. But for me its local history that I find great.

We had a few romans local to us but not that many, But they were here. We have an old Iron age hill fort locally, There is evidence of stone age people living here. And the Saxons where here and left a burial site behind them, Not far from the hill fort.

We had local battles in the English civil war. A price of the kind of Mercia was also Murdered, It is said that he was his body was hidden and buried and a spring rose up at this site which had great healing if you bathed in in. Another story said it could heal your eyes.
Saint Kenelm

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saint_Kenelm

This link includes the legend and also some facts about Kenelm.
 

Palaeocory

Forager
I want to drum up a protest and shift the topic back to early Britons lol. Romans are a boring, basically modern industrial culture that only happened a few years ago... ;)

Mesolithic Britain is much more interesting! Come on guys, hazelnuts!!
 

Old Bones

Settler
Oct 14, 2009
745
72
East Anglia
I want to drum up a protest and shift the topic back to early Britons lol. Romans are a boring, basically modern industrial culture that only happened a few years ago... ;)

Ouch!

But since we are on the subject of Horrible Histories, we can have a link to the Crassus song (sorry the video quality is a bit naff, but there doesn't seem to be the offical one up any more), and then there is the Stone Ages song (which is the best way to remember them!), and brings you back to 'Early Britons'. Everyone happy?

[video=youtube;KikVqvNH0WA]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KikVqvNH0WA[/video]

[video=youtube;L9AJUo6busg]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L9AJUo6busg[/video]
 

boatman

Bushcrafter (boy, I've got a lot to say!)
Feb 20, 2007
2,444
8
78
Cornwall
One thing about the Mesolithic is the amount of time people would have spent living in the open and perhaps some people should take note that you don't have to shield yourselves at all times from the outside. A Bodger friend of mine and myself have discussed this while at his camp where he will spend all day outside.

Prompted by something on skin being the best wear in the woods in The Archer's Craft by Hodgson I tried the near naked approach wearing just shorts with bare feet many years ago and the body adapts, even moving around spiky plants is easier than wearing clothes. The problem is, as always, other people as I cut the experiments short if anyone was about who might be a little concerned at my less than lovely figure. However brief my experiments we should consider that living so close to nature but with reasoning minds gave the Mesolithics the ability to live well and win the future.
 

Old Bones

Settler
Oct 14, 2009
745
72
East Anglia
Near naked and spikey plants? Experimental Archaeology is one thing, but thats a bit brave for me!

I suspect that the people of the Mesolithic, hardy though they might have been, would seek shelter if they needed it, and would have worn clothing that was appropriate to the conditions. Remember that spiky plants can cut, and cuts can get very bad, very quickly. An infected wound is the last thing you want, so tough clothing would make sense. There is evidence for 'houses' http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/ancient/archaeology/oldest_house_01.shtml, rather than just very temporary shelters. If your near the coast, or perhaps a river with a good supply of game, you have less need to move around. And during the winter, you will spend more time sheltering from the worst of the weather, so a more permanent, bigger and more comfortable dwelling would make sense.
 

Goatboy

Full Member
Jan 31, 2005
14,956
18
Scotland
Near naked and spikey plants? Experimental Archaeology is one thing, but thats a bit brave for me!
I suspect that the people of the Mesolithic, hardy though they might have been, would seek shelter if they needed it, and would have worn clothing that was appropriate to the conditions. Remember that spiky plants can cut, and cuts can get very bad, very quickly. An infected wound is the last thing you want, so tough clothing would make sense. There is evidence for 'houses' http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/ancient/archaeology/oldest_house_01.shtml, rather than just very temporary shelters. If your near the coast, or perhaps a river with a good supply of game, you have less need to move around. And during the winter, you will spend more time sheltering from the worst of the weather, so a more permanent, bigger and more comfortable dwelling would make sense.

Reminds me of the old cartoon of two Highlnders charging at the English lines, one saying to the other. "War cry my foot!, you try running through wet thistles and bracken in a kilt with no underpants on!"

Used to wear the kilt a fair bit working on the estate as a forester, especially when on the policy grounds. The tourists fair liked it.
 
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richardhomer

Settler
Aug 23, 2012
775
7
STOURBRIDGE
Well no stone age fixed dwellings have been found locally. From what I know the evidence that has been found suggested that they would migrate here each year. I put a link to some web sites that touched on this in my thread "black Country fields of gold" on the out and about area of the forum.
 

richardhomer

Settler
Aug 23, 2012
775
7
STOURBRIDGE


Reminds me of the old carton of two Highlnders charging at the English lines, one saying to the other. "War cry my foot!, you try running through wet thistles and bracken in a kilt with no underpants on!"

Used to wear the kilt a fair bit working on the estate as a forester, especially when on the policy grounds. The tourists fair liked it.


Do you know why kilts developed as the thing to wear in Scotland and not down here in England and Wales ?
 

Palaeocory

Forager
There's a site in Northumberland near Howick that is interpreted as a fixed dwelling from 7,600 year ago, there are post holes and evidence of hearths.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Howick_house

The page mentions Starr Carr having a 'house structure' too.

Previous to that it seems to be mostly caves that have been identified as dwellings, like at Cheddar Gorge, Kent's Cavern, Pontnewydd, and Paviland (all pre-Mesolithic). Other stone age sites that I know of are open air, but these ones are the cave sites that I can think of...
 

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