Dogs - who owns what and how did you choose it?

[Paul_B]

I work with a dog person, well animal person. She can turn her hand to any animal. Often tells the junior vets what's wrong on their smallholding. I've seen her with dogs and other animals. You can tell when you meet someone instinctively knowledgeable about animals.

So a lot of my research also includes dog talk with her (and another person who's a farmer's daughter). I know the best vets for dogs, best groomers and best dog boarding kennels. She knows them all having been to them all. If somewhere is dodgy she's hardly out of the car before she's turned around (one story of many).

The one thing she says is a dog from a working dog breeder is best all round. Get arguments include health, temperament, intelligence is higher along with trainability. Her advice is to get from a good breeder. It'll be virtually trained. I've seen the puppy she bred from good gundog stock (father had hip score 3 and 4, mother 4 and 6 among other good measures like champion dogs in the ancestry). She brought it in from a young age. It just kept silent by her side from young puppy. It's the behaviour a good peg dog has I believe but that's without training. I've seen it a few times and serious class dog.

A few gundog breeders near us and cocker & springer breeders one also breeds collies and Labrador dogs all working dogs. He's a seriously qualified dog behaviorist and trainer too. The dogs he's brought into his line come from overseas too. He is in contact with some of the best breeders around Europe, Canada and USA from what his website seems to say. Mostly marketing I guess but from the names of his dogs you can trace back some to overseas breeders with registered names. Breeder calls his concern "Faithful", gets a name for breeding good dogs, registers the name with kennel club and all his dogs have Faithful in their kennel club name. A good system I think because it allows a potential buyer to track back and see the pedigree.

 

[Paul_B]

Does anyone know if it's true that working gundogs are usually bigger than show dogs.

BTW in the post above I used the term gundogs when I should have used working dogs. Even show dog cocker are gundogs.

BTW there's a lot to know about dogs isn't there! It feels like I'm doing my A-level exam revision I'm learning so much! Obviously I'll learn a lot more when I get the dog. I wonder if everyone does this much research? I reckon there's a lot on here who just grew up with dogs so kind of didn't need to do this research before getting their own dogs.

Just got to move into a better house for us and the dog first.

 

[Broch]

I personally would not choose a working cocker. They are bred to ‘work’. A more normal (‘ornamental’, ‘show’) cocker is bred to be a family pet.

Sorry to disagree with you Janne but in my experience this is not the case. A dog from working stock is more stable, calmer, more obedient and more reliable. 'Pet' stock can be anything and, again, in my experience more highly strung.

You choose a dog, the breeder does not choose it for you!

Again, sorry, but I disagree (twice in one day! ). I think a breeder has every right to decide who can buy their dogs and would be irresponsible not to. However, if Paul can convince a working dog breeder that he knows how to look after the breed and give it the environment it needs they will sell it to him. I wouldn't buy a dog from any breeder that did not care where it went; they'd probably have the same ' laissez-faire' attitude to their breeding.

Cheers,

Broch

 

[Broch]

Does anyone know if it's true that working gundogs are usually bigger than show dogs.

Not necessarily Paul. Around here, where there is a lot of very thick bramble, a smaller springer is preferred by some. My current one (a bitch) only weighs 15Kg which is quite small.

Cheers,

Broch

 

[Paul_B]

I personally agree with you but this breeder came across as more about the dog's use than welfare.

A non-hunter / shooter can give a gundog a good home as well as a shooter. If welfare is the aim then I completely agree. It just read like a pure prejudiced view of non-hunters.

 

[Broch]

I personally agree with you but this breeder came across as more about the dog's use than welfare.

A non-hunter / shooter can give a gundog a good home as well as a shooter. If welfare is the aim then I completely agree. It just read like a pure prejudiced view of non-hunters.

Agreed, there's careful then there's arrogant.

 

[Paul_B]

I can see his view a little. He's x generation shooter / gun dog owner who's gone into breeding as a money earner. His family has been breeding them for use for generations.

 

[Janne]

Broch, what I meant I would not accept which puppy I was to get.

 

[Broch]

Broch, what I meant I would not accept which puppy I was to get.

Ah,100% with you on that, sorry.

 

[santaman2000]

In my experience dogs from working stock are the better stock. Of course there are exceptions but by and large it's better to choose from them. As Broch said, "pet" quality usually is just a polite way of saying they didn't make the cut as working dogs or show dogs.

 

[Paul_B]

It does depend though. Whilst that's true there's more to it.

Pet or show dogs may conform to a breed standard that's all about looks with a bit any personality and character.

Working dogs are all about performance over looks, although this looks are nice too.

A farmer friend said border collies come in two breeding populations. Working ones and pet ones. They look and behave differently.

Back awhile ppl used to buy collies cheap from farms. They were failed dogs for working. The trouble was they were outdoor dogs not suited for families. Pet dogs tended to be more manageable and less destructive if left indoors on their own. Bred from different stock with different priorities meant they were almost different breeds. True or not I can believe it.

 

[Janne]

IF you buy a(pet style) Cocker, as you know there are established norms for how they should be trimmed.

Forget that. Just have the long hair on the ears, legs, paws and under stomach removed.
Dirt, mud and twig traps. Food trap on ears = smells.
We had our first Cocker trimmed to 'the Cocker standard' for about a year. Then we had her trimmed the practical way.

When we moved to the Tropics, we took the dogs with us (of course!) and here we had them cut to a 'number 3' standard - short all over.
Too hot, too many ticks in the wilder areas.

 

[Paul_B]

Just found one good option for dog walking /daycare for my missing 2 days. I have 2 days without anyone being home all day. I can't get a dog without a firm plan for those 2 days.

Option 1 is a dog walking service. That's someone collects my dog (using a securely held spare key) and takes it out for at least an hour with up to 4 other dogs. A tenner per day. That's OK.

Option 2 a really good daycare in a town a 20 minutes away. If they come to my area they'll collect the dog and keep it all day. They've got an acre if fenced land with agility and other toys. Plus pools, trampolines, ball pools, etc. Even a heated building for them. It's really good and only £8 per day!

Option 3 look for another dog service.

Option 3 B my work colleague leaves her dogs in a kennel all day. She's offered to look after mine too. She finishes earlier and starts later too. Plus her dogs are mostly gundogs too. I suspect I'll use them as socialization if I get a dog. It's good to get good, calm and trained dogs to give a good example for a puppy I think.

It's looking good for a dog. Options found. It's just whether to sell house and move first or get dog then move. Suspect move first is best but...

 

[santaman2000]

Sounds like you've got most of it sorted. Now just make sure you post pix when you get the pup!

 

[Stew]

How long would you be out for on the two days?

 

[Paul_B]

Those two days is 8:45 - 16:40. That's completely too long. Without some option to cope with that there would be no dog moving in with us. I figure that splitting the day up could be ok, but it's still going to be about 3 hours and 4 hours without human interaction. I'm still having doubts that it'll be too long.

The dog walking service would be for at least an hour of walking, with perhaps traveling time in the van. Maybe 3 hours either side.

It could be one day a week or two. Maybe the odd week it's no days. One day a week the dog would be alone from 8:45 to 13:1pm = 4.5 hours.

Before I leave on that day its an hour walk. When I get back I have another hour or so before I collect our son from school to give the dog a walk. We live right next to a canal that leads in 5 minutes brisk walk direct to the countryside. A bit longer and there's fields that I can safely let the dog run. A minor issue that part runs down to the Canal. Good for the swimmers of the dog world!

If we are ever short of time for exercising the dog one morning, afternoon or evening then we live a minute or so from a community field that's really only used as a dog exercising field. Safe to let off the lead if recall is good.

We intend to train the dog to have good recall. If we can't do it ourselves we will go to classes or at worst get a trainer involved. I don't think it's responsible to own a dog without good recall. Part of the reason for choosing a gundog is for this reason, they're bred to have the characteristics needed to get good recall. I hope to have it based on a whistle. The doggy daycare place do this, they even train it in dogs that don't have it.

 

[Paul_B]

We're close but not all the way there. But if we go ahead I would like to record the puppy to dog on here.

I hope I've not been too self indulgent with this thread. I appreciate your indulgence with my dithering. I've had good advice on here and I do appreciate the time you've taken to read and reply.

 

[Paul_B]

Aaargh! Having doubts again.

Found a good, kennel club approved breeder of working cocker spaniels. A couple of back and forth emails where he gave me info and I told him a bit more about our family. Full disclosure because he's the kind of breeder who vets prospective owners, keeps in touch and gives assistance after homing the dog. His dogs are bred from F.Ch. right through their ancestry. He's also a trainer and behaviourist.

The last email quoted a few groups including a breed specific rescue organization. The gist of his advice is working cocker are going to be hard work if you can give them most of your time. You'll need to work them out they'll find their own work. They're stubborn. They're hard work which doesn't scare me but a lot of his information has hit home. It's not like he's ruling out allowing me to take a dog just spelling out all the consequences.

I chose working over show because I worried that we'd reach a point where a show could tire. I've read a few things that made me think a working would suit. This breeder has made me think a show could be better. Trouble is I'm not sure I like them. I'm not choosing on looks am I?

Anyway, what's the truth? Is a working cocker really hard work? I've always understood cockers to be not as mad as springer, calmer and easier to live with but still active. I've seen show cockers ambling along with older ppl (pensioners). Are they better suited to us?

A quote I read said the following :

Want an easy life get a Labrador.
Want more of a challenge get a springer.
Want to go completely off your rocker get a cocker!

Anyone know if this cocker idea is a good or bad one?

What's my alternative?

Intelligent, trainable, energetic for full day walks, etc. Basically everything I thought cocker were.

 

[Macaroon]

You've somehow got Cocker and Springer reversed; the rhyme you quote above sums it up nicely. Springers, when handled correctly and given ample opportunity to use up their physical exuberance, can make very placid companion dogs. Still a 'high maintenance' animal, especially in the formative months, they require a lot of interaction with training and keeping them mentally occupied. They are extremely intelligent and very quick to read people and they need near-constant stimulus to keep them psychologically sound; once you've achieved that and they feel secure and know their place they become very low maintenance. Your problem is going to be that initial period of fairly intense and time-consuming bonding and training.

I have had a few Springers over the years and have quite a lot to do with other working Springers in my area, and I've never known a Spaniel turn out to be happy and sound without the above approach.

As to the showdog thing, they are bred for looks and and some bunch of eejits made up a breed standard that has to be adhered to so the gene pool is corrrupted by unscrupulous breeders for profit, and there's a lot of money involved; we all know the sort of thing that can happen when there's dosh to be made, eh?

 

[Broch]

We've had both in our family - my parents a cocker and us springers (as well as other gun dogs). BUT, I don't think that's a big enough sample to be statistically viable for the following to be representative.

Our Springer is currently lying down in front of the log burner dozing away after an afternoon in the wood. But to be fair, she'd be doing that at this time of night if we'd only managed a short walk. She expects to be doing something all the time outside in the garden; she want us to play 'fetch' (i.e. retrieve) all the time; that can get quite tiring. On a long walk she's as good as gold; will walk to heel through a field of sheep, stops and looks on a single blast of the whistle, and flies in as fast as her 9 year old legs can carry her on the two short blasts.

The Cocker was much calmer in general, didn't constantly nag to be working, but if she got the sent of a rabbit she ignored every call and whistle - however, my Dad was never quite as disciplined with the training as I am. A friend of mine has two Cockers that put my Springer to shame in the obedience stakes but he's a professional.

Both dogs can be trained very well; the first 3 months are crucial - no variation, no different methods and attitudes between people, never scold when the dog comes in no matter what it was up to beforehand etc. etc. - but you probably know all that. Even if you never use one with the gun the methods used by gun dog trainers are worth following; you'll be so proud when your dog darts to your heel when others are messing about.

I recommend:
Gun Dog Training with Andrew Wylie (a small paperback)
Gundogs: Training and Field Trials by P.R.A.Moxon
The Working Springer Spaniel by Keith Erlandson

Hope that helps

Cheers,

Broch