Disability and bushcraft.
- Thread starter Woody girl
- Start date
A disparate group of complete strangers, all with their hopes and expectations for the course.
The course 'provider' has to deliver what was offered for the fee.
They cannot leave someone behind, so everyone has to go at the pace of the slowest. Frustration, irritation and inattention slowly overcomes patience and kindness. That's just the way things work, even amongst well meaning and helpful people.
I'm sorry you couldn't get on the course. I hope that there is another opportunity to participate, perhaps with the same instructor and site but with no one else's expectations needing to be accomodated too.
In an ideal world, then everyone would have the time and patience to slow down, to help or to wait, but the reality is that it's mostly younger fitter adults who do the bushcraft courses, and they pay hard earned cash to do the course in what little free time they have.
You have the luxury of time, of going at your own pace, maybe see if you can build a kind of learning experience on the foreshore around that ?
I'm pretty sure you won't be the only person who has physical limitations who'd like to do a course like this.
It might be worthwhile asking around. If it can be shared then the expense might be a lot less too.
M
The course 'provider' has to deliver what was offered for the fee.
They cannot leave someone behind, so everyone has to go at the pace of the slowest. Frustration, irritation and inattention slowly overcomes patience and kindness. That's just the way things work, even amongst well meaning and helpful people.
I'm sorry you couldn't get on the course. I hope that there is another opportunity to participate, perhaps with the same instructor and site but with no one else's expectations needing to be accomodated too.
In an ideal world, then everyone would have the time and patience to slow down, to help or to wait, but the reality is that it's mostly younger fitter adults who do the bushcraft courses, and they pay hard earned cash to do the course in what little free time they have.
You have the luxury of time, of going at your own pace, maybe see if you can build a kind of learning experience on the foreshore around that ?
I'm pretty sure you won't be the only person who has physical limitations who'd like to do a course like this.
It might be worthwhile asking around. If it can be shared then the expense might be a lot less too.
M
Surely the flaw lies with a poorly conceived demographic by the outfitter.
You guys have a HUGE population base for your land area.
Spell it out. Who gets to go. Next week, a different group.
My D2 did an outback jaunt out of Adelaide. A big place, OZ, and few people, agreed?
The 10 day trip was for women from 18 to 30 yrs old, fit enough to walk 1/4 mile without stopping*. Four other different demographic groups left the same day, same company, they never saw each other out on the track.
So what are the obstacles you Brits face to do the same thing?
12:1 ratio of staff. Full kit, just have a whale of a time with the flora and fauna.
* she met her husband-to-be one evening in a pub in Alice Springs.
I am still pleased after all these years.
You guys have a HUGE population base for your land area.
Spell it out. Who gets to go. Next week, a different group.
My D2 did an outback jaunt out of Adelaide. A big place, OZ, and few people, agreed?
The 10 day trip was for women from 18 to 30 yrs old, fit enough to walk 1/4 mile without stopping*. Four other different demographic groups left the same day, same company, they never saw each other out on the track.
So what are the obstacles you Brits face to do the same thing?
12:1 ratio of staff. Full kit, just have a whale of a time with the flora and fauna.
* she met her husband-to-be one evening in a pub in Alice Springs.
I am still pleased after all these years.
It might be a complete tangent but in the Paralympics they have all sorts of different categories for differing types and severity of disabilities, could this translate easily to normal people rather than elite athletes? Would it be feasible for companies to say their course is suitable for categories XYZ and if there's enough interest for categories ABC they tailor a course to go with that, that is of course with the background of the course being economically viable for the companies.
Im going to be direct but I hope it will not come across as insulting.
As others have previously stated, the abilities and attitudes of one individual can have a dramatic affect on the outcomes for the entire group. Have you considered this? And if so what are your thoughts?
Also, have you contacted the company privately to discuss your abilities and see if they can accommodate you either on the course or with a private session?
I think that compromise should start with yourself rather than expecting others to compromise for you.
As others have previously stated, the abilities and attitudes of one individual can have a dramatic affect on the outcomes for the entire group. Have you considered this? And if so what are your thoughts?
Also, have you contacted the company privately to discuss your abilities and see if they can accommodate you either on the course or with a private session?
I think that compromise should start with yourself rather than expecting others to compromise for you.
That's a good point; being 'poor' is as much a disability when it comes to attending courses as anything else. Luckily a lot of instruction and information is available for free and 'doing bushcraft' does not need to be expensive; it's just not possible to attend physical courses.
I think this also once depends on what one thinks bushcraft is. When some of the "primitive" things were in use a lot was done at home, wandering skills were as a guess a different set of skills from normal everyday existence, certainly a lot of overlapping. Grand fathers stayed home doing grandfartherly things and young hunters ran over the mountains after game. A kind of natural division in work loads can easily be envisioned.
Have to say that's absolute poppycock! if a disabled person has saved their meagre funds to attend a course then they have as much right to expect the same consideration as the next person who paid the same amount to attend, or do you expect them to pay even more?
Seems disabled people are just not welcome.
I can't stick that attitude. It smells rancid, and if I were a disabled person comming to this site for the first time hoping for encouragement and advice ,I'd be saying, I'm obviosly not welcome in this community. Id think that I'd never be able to do anything and be accepted as an equal. What happened to equal opportunities and non discrimination?
I know of one person who teaches from a wheelchair at forest school, so you realy have a biased opinion.
I only popped back to see if anyone had anything better than discrimination to offer. Apparently not.
Me out for good now. I realy don't care where you take this now, and don't bother replying as I won't be reading it.
I haven’t seen anyone saying that disabled Bush rafters aren’t welcome.
The subject of inclusivity is such a challenge and hard to find an answer. If it was easy, we would be there by now. I think by including some, you risk excluding others. That goes across many issues and activities. I think there’s little point to get wound up in a discussion like this as it can just belittle the argument. Mostly I’ve seen a fair discussion that has raised some interesting points.
The subject of inclusivity is such a challenge and hard to find an answer. If it was easy, we would be there by now. I think by including some, you risk excluding others. That goes across many issues and activities. I think there’s little point to get wound up in a discussion like this as it can just belittle the argument. Mostly I’ve seen a fair discussion that has raised some interesting points.
I've just read this whole thread with interest and a little frustration.
The way I see these things is much the same as anyone that wants to find a school or organisation that they feel they fit into. People have to look about, talk to schools etc and find the places that accommodate their needs.
Some people want more survivalist courses, some want fast paced, some want physically demanding, some want more relaxed, or not so physical, some want short ones and others want as long as possible.
Everyone should find the place, be that a company, organisation or friends that works for them, that make them comfortable and they enjoy the experience. Not everyone can be accommodated by everyone/or companies etc. That's unrealistic and I think unfair on them, who should be free to chose where they run their business, who they accommodate etc.
If someone has a disability or a particular need then I am confident that they could be accommodated but the right company, it's a case of finding that company and building a relationship with them. I'm also fairly confident that if anyone approached a company with a group of like minded people that made up enough in numbers a bespoke course could be easily commissioned. It's also worth pointing out that we don't generally put children with adults and children are much more likely to be split by age/size etc to accommodate physical and mental abilities.
As for the comments about disabled people not being welcome I think that if they came and asked what they could do in bushcraft, what's possible, has anyone got suggestions to help with a craft or skill then people would bend over backwards to give input, be encouraging etc. A specific request for help would likely be much more answerable.
The way I see these things is much the same as anyone that wants to find a school or organisation that they feel they fit into. People have to look about, talk to schools etc and find the places that accommodate their needs.
Some people want more survivalist courses, some want fast paced, some want physically demanding, some want more relaxed, or not so physical, some want short ones and others want as long as possible.
Everyone should find the place, be that a company, organisation or friends that works for them, that make them comfortable and they enjoy the experience. Not everyone can be accommodated by everyone/or companies etc. That's unrealistic and I think unfair on them, who should be free to chose where they run their business, who they accommodate etc.
If someone has a disability or a particular need then I am confident that they could be accommodated but the right company, it's a case of finding that company and building a relationship with them. I'm also fairly confident that if anyone approached a company with a group of like minded people that made up enough in numbers a bespoke course could be easily commissioned. It's also worth pointing out that we don't generally put children with adults and children are much more likely to be split by age/size etc to accommodate physical and mental abilities.
As for the comments about disabled people not being welcome I think that if they came and asked what they could do in bushcraft, what's possible, has anyone got suggestions to help with a craft or skill then people would bend over backwards to give input, be encouraging etc. A specific request for help would likely be much more answerable.
You said that yesterday, got snappy on ROF this morning, and now back threatening to leave again despite saying you were out for good. Take a step back and cool your boots mate.
You really haven't been clear about anything apart from communicating you're in a very bad mood.
I for one do not want to go on a course. Even if I could afford one.
But that's just me.
If I heard about a course who were being discriminatory I would want them named and shamed.
I agree there is a lot of discrimination, I have been discriminated against. You must appreciate I can do a lot of stuff but I need a lot of understanding, I'm totally dependent on what we might call the mellow attitude.
This means that an awful lot of foreign places would be excluded to me; even if I could afford to go.
But that's just me.
If I heard about a course who were being discriminatory I would want them named and shamed.
I agree there is a lot of discrimination, I have been discriminated against. You must appreciate I can do a lot of stuff but I need a lot of understanding, I'm totally dependent on what we might call the mellow attitude.
This means that an awful lot of foreign places would be excluded to me; even if I could afford to go.
Oh dear. Really? You really think you have the right to tell a small business person that they must change their course delivery to satisfy you. So you think I really should have spent £60K plus so that my 4x4 off road teaching could take on disabled drivers and never recover that money.
You really don't know me at all (though we have met), or the things I have done in my businesses to help people into or back into careers, so to say I have a biased opinion is darn right rude. Most disabled people I have worked with and know would be embarrassed by your attitude I'm afraid - instead of winging about how others are holding them back they are striving to independently do what they want.
No one has said that disabled people cannot do bushcraft based courses or participate in the activities. It's just some activities are just not suitable. The wheelchair bound instructor doesn't teach coastal foraging on rocky foreshores I'm sure.
As for other disabled people coming on this web site, there are a number already - you may note that none of them are actually supporting your view.
I'm not quite stupid enough to enter a situation where I can't cope with the physical requirements. My physical challenges are enough to make me an enormous liability in a scenario demanding physical fitness and endurance.
Does not bother me one whit to admit it.
So as I said much earlier, I'll sit in camp and work away on dozens of bushcraft activities that no fool can do on the dead run to bag another peak.
In fact, there is a role to manage roasts cooking over the open fire. Vegetables prepared and cooked at the right times. This niche activity certainly expands the options and alternatives for meals. Of course, hot meals at +5C always taste good!
Does not bother me one whit to admit it.
So as I said much earlier, I'll sit in camp and work away on dozens of bushcraft activities that no fool can do on the dead run to bag another peak.
In fact, there is a role to manage roasts cooking over the open fire. Vegetables prepared and cooked at the right times. This niche activity certainly expands the options and alternatives for meals. Of course, hot meals at +5C always taste good!
I'll be 80 in a couple of months. I'd be seriously worried about the professional judgement of an instructor who took my money to be on a physically demanding course with a group of fit thirty year olds. I certainly wouldn't feel discriminated against.
I'd also be seriously worried about my own judgement if I thought the course had to be made to suit me.
I'd also be seriously worried about my own judgement if I thought the course had to be made to suit me.
I dunno I have "disabilities" that I was born with and others that I aquired, I am not about to deliver a lecture but I could.
