Disability and bushcraft.

[TeeDee]

It doesn't have to be an unfair world.
A lot of schools are teaching a lot of things over a weekend spending only an hour or so on any particular skill, and seem quite proud of their high pressure teaching.
A more relaxed attitude and slower pace would include many more people who let's face it, all have different learning styles and outcomes.
I prefer a relaxed attitude, but then I guess the average customer has to feel they are getting value for the high prices charged, and everything crammed into a couple of days.
Seems it mostly comes down to money and liability. A more high pressure weekend obviosly has higher pressure, therefore more opportunity for mishaps to occur, or people not being able to keep up with the more able members of the group.
I think the attitude that if you can't keep up you can't do it , so go away, is wrong. Where would our kids be if normal schools worked like that?

No it doesn't but ( and I may have misread it ) your initial post on the other thread came across as more of a quasi/expedition type thing?? I could understand an instructors caution and reticence in that circumstance. Do I think its necessarily fair - No.

It would be lovely to have a school that has an ' all welcome' acceptance policy but as you've mentioned that would probably mean ( from their side of the fence in running it ) that they would want to increase Instructor to student ratio , have more highly skilled instructors in certain areas and have better provisions and margins built into most elements.

 

[Broch]

No it doesn't but ( and I may have misread it ) your initial post on the other thread came across as more of a quasi/expedition type thing?? I could understand an instructors caution and reticence in that circumstance. Do I think its necessarily fair - No.

It would be lovely to have a school that has an ' all welcome' acceptance policy but as you've mentioned that would probably mean ( from their side of the fence in running it ) that they would want to increase Instructor to student ratio , have more highly skilled instructors in certain areas and have better provisions and margins built into most elements.

oooh - you used 2 question marks there

 

[TeeDee]

oooh - you used 2 question marks there

Yes- well spotted. My finger slipped. Would you like me to show you which one?

 

[Woody girl]

So, basically, I should give up on trying to stay engaged fit and active, sit in my back garden whittling spoons or knitting socks and leave the fun to young fit chaps and not run the risk of damaging some little guys income by falling over and banging my elbow, cos I might sue him, and others would get teed off by not going at 90 miles an hour, instead of being calm and actualy engaging with my environment, and what is being taught in depth, rather than just skimming over the principles and techniques.?
I'm so sorry to be such a drag!
As I suspected it might, some of the replies have perfectly illustrated the knock backs I get all the time. Its a wonder I've not given up and just accepted I'm unable to be a person with anything worth while.
I guess that sounds dramatic, but its the impression I get that I should give up while I can still do stuff and moulder away at home! Heaven forbid!
Yes, some of us get less able as we age, but I'm made of the stuff that keeps going, and hates people telling me I shouldn't do this or that.
I will give up when I can't do anything anymore, and not before!
Put a block on me and I'll go do it anyway just to show you how wrong you are. I'm not ready for the scrap heap yet. Its still only on the horizon for me. Yes, I can see it, but I still get up and carry on every time I fall over. Figuratively speaking as well as physically. I'm a fighter, as you may have guessed, and a grumpy old woman when someone decides for me what I'm capable of, and what I'm not.
I can see now why it's so hard to keep going, some just won't let you, or try to get you to accept that it's too hard, or too much trouble for them to accommodate.
No wonder disability rights are still an issue!

 

[nigelp]

I teach navigation (map reading) and other outdoor related skills training, but primarily map reading courses. Participants have to declare when they book they do not have any pre-exsisting medical conditions (that make them unable to participate) and/or are able to undertake the physical activity (walking around 10-12km) and will be suitably equip for the expected weather and ground conditions. A majority of the courses are group courses and so it would be hard to modify the length, or terrain choice for one person without affecting the experience or even making it more risky for the other participants.

Participants also have to sign on at the course start to declare same and except risks etc. These are requirements of my insurance company and because I have legal duty of care to every participant. In the past on a couple of occasions I have been put into very compromising situations by participants that were either poorly equipped, unable to physically manage short sections of the course on tracks and paths; on each occasion the participant could have put themselves or others into a tricky situation. I can risk asses and plan for accidents, emergencies or for anyone with a disability but not would be deemed negligent if I allowed someone to start or continue an activity that led to a serious injury or worse!

If a person declares a medical condition or disability, or contacted me then I can adjust the course to suit (if possible), or offer to do something on a bespoke basis.

None of my courses are high pressure and are excellent value for money!
Around 40/50% of the price you pay will be costs and overheads to the provider.

 

[JonathanD]

Can I ask what you were supposed to be doing that caused all this? What activity was it?

 

[Robson Valley]

I'll be the old guy who hangs out at the camp. I can't walk well and uneven ground is a nightmare, even with a cane. There are dozens of bush craft and camp craft useful things to learn to do while I sit. Rope work and knots, wood carving of all sorts. I will toss the odd stick into the fire to keep it going. Freehand sharpening is always a skill that needs practice. We will need to joint all the game you bring in for a satisfactory supper. Somebody has to dice the oniions.

I can bankroll my part so I'm never an economic burden. Sleeping bags, lanterns, petrol stoves, I can bring it all.

What's missing? An invitation.

 

[Broch]

So, basically, I should give up on trying to stay engaged fit and active, sit in my back garden whittling spoons or knitting socks and leave the fun to young fit chaps and not run the risk of damaging some little guys income by falling over and banging my elbow, cos I might sue him, and others would get teed off by not going at 90 miles an hour, instead of being calm and actualy engaging with my environment, and what is being taught in depth, rather than just skimming over the principles and techniques.?
I'm so sorry to be such a drag!
As I suspected it might, some of the replies have perfectly illustrated the knock backs I get all the time. Its a wonder I've not given up and just accepted I'm unable to be a person with anything worth while.
I guess that sounds dramatic, but its the impression I get that I should give up while I can still do stuff and moulder away at home! Heaven forbid!
Yes, some of us get less able as we age, but I'm made of the stuff that keeps going, and hates people telling me I shouldn't do this or that.
I will give up when I can't do anything anymore, and not before!
Put a block on me and I'll go do it anyway just to show you how wrong you are. I'm not ready for the scrap heap yet. Its still only on the horizon for me. Yes, I can see it, but I still get up and carry on every time I fall over. Figuratively speaking as well as physically. I'm a fighter, as you may have guessed, and a grumpy old woman when someone decides for me what I'm capable of, and what I'm not.
I can see now why it's so hard to keep going, some just won't let you, or try to get you to accept that it's too hard, or too much trouble for them to accommodate.
No wonder disability rights are still an issue!

You've done it again Woody girl; you've taken it personally. I was just trying to provide a balanced discussion! Do you want replies that just agree with you or that explore the serious issue?

I still want to do a great deal; I canoed the Spey two years ago but, because I can no longer kneel, I came out and put the lives of my two (much younger) companions at risk. Should I have done it? did I have a right to? Probably not TBH.

I know you are experienced - have you thought of setting up courses that provide for the disabled or people with mobility issues?

I used to do off-road driving training. Should I have spent the best part of £60K to get a disability capable 4x4 vehicle plus the added training and insurance for a potential 2% increase in inclusivity? Do you even have a right to ask me to?

I am quite confident that if we were sitting around a pub table, having a drink, this discussion would be a lot more jovial and light-hearted yet still cover the serious issues; so apologies if my typed words offend - they're not designed to.

 

[TeeDee]

So, basically, I should give up on trying to stay engaged fit and active, sit in my back garden whittling spoons or knitting socks and leave the fun to young fit chaps and not run the risk of damaging some little guys income by falling over and banging my elbow, cos I might sue him, and others would get teed off by not going at 90 miles an hour, instead of being calm and actualy engaging with my environment, and what is being taught in depth, rather than just skimming over the principles and techniques.?
I'm so sorry to be such a drag!
As I suspected it might, some of the replies have perfectly illustrated the knock backs I get all the time. Its a wonder I've not given up and just accepted I'm unable to be a person with anything worth while.
I guess that sounds dramatic, but its the impression I get that I should give up while I can still do stuff and moulder away at home! Heaven forbid!
Yes, some of us get less able as we age, but I'm made of the stuff that keeps going, and hates people telling me I shouldn't do this or that.
I will give up when I can't do anything anymore, and not before!
Put a block on me and I'll go do it anyway just to show you how wrong you are. I'm not ready for the scrap heap yet. Its still only on the horizon for me. Yes, I can see it, but I still get up and carry on every time I fall over. Figuratively speaking as well as physically. I'm a fighter, as you may have guessed, and a grumpy old woman when someone decides for me what I'm capable of, and what I'm not.
I can see now why it's so hard to keep going, some just won't let you, or try to get you to accept that it's too hard, or too much trouble for them to accommodate.
No wonder disability rights are still an issue!

A forum is for debate woody.

Both sides.


Nothing we discuss here is likely to change the real world situation.
But maybe what IS discussed here will allow some of us get a different perspective on the 'why'.

 

[Tengu]

Do you know, I would love to not have to worry about everyday aspects of disability; like, say, getting a job?

If I had a job I could do more outdoor things...economic difficulties are the MAIN reason the disabled dont do thigs.

 

[Woody girl]

So disabled people are a liability? So are alcoholics and drug users, bit bushcraft is often used as a way to engage them in a healthy activity.

Can I ask what you were supposed to be doing that caused all this? What activity was it?

It's not just one activity, I've come across this many times, and in several walks of life, such as when I took up forestry. Apparently all the lumber Jill's in ww2 are a myth and women can't do the job. That's just one thing. Nothing to do with disability in the accepted sense, but everything to do with perceived inability.
Proved them wrong there too!
I get it with my bike riding, oh how come you can manage that with your problems? You shouldn't be riding, or even worse, you are a faker, and I'm gonna report you.
I belong to N A B D, national association for bikers with a disability.. sometimes all it takes, as with me, is a small adaption and you are riding again. I know loads of disabled bikers and nothing stops us doing what we did before we became in need of a bit of adaption to the way we do things.
So I believe its possible in bushcraft. I've changed the way I do many things, but I'm still out there doing it.
Many without my experience and grit(bloody mindedness) would give up, and that is a huge loss to themselves and the community as a whole.
By the way, I'm Not talking about numpties who believe they are fitter than they are, and they must be a pain for sure, but people who have, or would have a passion for bushcraft given the chance.
I know my limits and I would not attempt a 12km map reading course over difficult terrain. That's not what I want to do, though I must admit a refresher would be useful

 

[Broch]

I'll be the old guy who hangs out at the camp. I can't walk well and uneven ground is a nightmare, even with a cane. There are dozens of bush craft and camp craft useful things to learn to do while I sit. Rope work and knots, wood carving of all sorts. I will toss the odd stick into the fire to keep it going. Freehand sharpening is always a skill that needs practice. We will need to joint all the game you bring in for a satisfactory supper. Somebody has to dice the oniions.

I can bankroll my part so I'm never an economic burden. Sleeping bags, lanterns, petrol stoves, I can bring it all.

What's missing? An invitation.

That's not true RV; I've said you are most welcome whenever you are over

 

[Woody girl]

I don't expect total agreement, but I am trying to untrench the view that someone with a disability is not for this game, and a liability, when just a little understanding of how it makes one feel, and a small adjustment to the way some things are taught would go a long way to making many feel more comfortable with bushcraft and gain an awful lot in self esteem which I'm sure no one would disagree can only be a good thing.

 

[Woody girl]

A forum is for debate woody.

Both sides.


Nothing we discuss here is likely to change the real world situation.
But maybe what IS discussed here will allow some of us get a different perspective on the 'why'.

Yes but in a debate there are two sides of the coin, and you have to be on one side or another, or it's not a debate.

 

[TeeDee]

Do you know, I would love to not have to worry about everyday aspects of disability; like, say, getting a job?

If I had a job I could do more outdoor things...economic difficulties are the MAIN reason the disabled dont do thigs.

You can always create a job Tengu? Plenty of entrepreneurs started small scale operations from a home base then in time expanded.

I've done that a couple of times. Side hustles that grew into more sizable businesses.

 

[Woody girl]

I'll be the old guy who hangs out at the camp. I can't walk well and uneven ground is a nightmare, even with a cane. There are dozens of bush craft and camp craft useful things to learn to do while I sit. Rope work and knots, wood carving of all sorts. I will toss the odd stick into the fire to keep it going. Freehand sharpening is always a skill that needs practice. We will need to joint all the game you bring in for a satisfactory supper. Somebody has to dice the oniions.

I can bankroll my part so I'm never an economic burden. Sleeping bags, lanterns, petrol stoves, I can bring it all.

What's missing? An invitation.

Exactly, just because you can't do a or b it doesn't mean you shouldn't be part of it. There is always something that is possible. You just need the chance and someone to believe in you and your abilities whatever they may be, not write you off!

 

[JonathanD]

So disabled people are a liability? So are alcoholics and drug users, bit bushcraft is often used as a way to engage them in a healthy activity.


It's not just one activity, I've come across this many times, and in several walks of life, such as when I took up forestry. Apparently all the lumber Jill's in ww2 are a myth and women can't do the job. That's just one thing. Nothing to do with disability in the accepted sense, but everything to do with perceived inability.
Proved them wrong there too!
I get it with my bike riding, oh how come you can manage that with your problems? You shouldn't be riding, or even worse, you are a faker, and I'm gonna report you.
I belong to N A B D, national association for bikers with a disability.. sometimes all it takes, as with me, is a small adaption and you are riding again. I know loads of disabled bikers and nothing stops us doing what we did before we became in need of a bit of adaption to the way we do things.
So I believe its possible in bushcraft. I've changed the way I do many things, but I'm still out there doing it.
Many without my experience and grit(bloody mindedness) would give up, and that is a huge loss to themselves and the community as a whole.
By the way, I'm Not talking about numpties who believe they are fitter than they are, and they must be a pain for sure, but people who have, or would have a passion for bushcraft given the chance.
I know my limits and I would not attempt a 12km map reading course over difficult terrain. That's not what I want to do, though I must admit a refresher would be useful

But what was it on this particular course. And what course was it?

Im trying to get a perspective of what you came up against here.

 

[Woody girl]

But what was it on this particular course. And what course was it?

Im trying to get a perspective of what you came up against here.

I don't wish to single out any particular school or course, and its immaterial what I wanted to do, its the concept of " you have a physical problem that means the course might be too much for you, therefore we won't take you," when they realy do not know what I am capable of at all, a judgement made without any real medical knowledge of my problems, or knowledge of me and what I am capable of,.that I'm trying to discuss.
I do know of another who had come up against this (being a severe asthmatic, )and being told the course was too physical for him, but not telling the next place he tried, got a place and completed an almost identical course, no problems. Apart from being a bit breathless at times and needing a short rest, and back in doing things. So it's not just me that has a problem with perceived inability to do a course.

 

[JonathanD]

It’s important knowing what you wanted to do and what course/activity it was to gain an appreciation of your position. Naming an activity isn’t going to name the company or person. Unless it’s a specialist thing like active volcano skiing where only one group offers that experience.

 

[TeeDee]

It’s important knowing what you wanted to do and what course/activity it was to gain an appreciation of your position. Naming an activity isn’t going to name the company or person. Unless it’s a specialist thing like active volcano skiing where only one group offers that experience.

Agreed - its very relevant if its part of what is being discussed. It doesn't help if its not mentioned - its quite the opposite.