No problem.
It is a complex area and you are obviously concerned about the ignorance of those of us who have no realisation of the problems.
Thanks for the link.
Disability and behavior of members
- Thread starter firecrest
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Hey Guest, Early bird pricing on the Summer Moot (29th July - 10th August) available until April 6th, we'd love you to come. PLEASE CLICK HERE to early bird price and get more information.
No problem.
It is a complex area and you are obviously concerned about the ignorance of those of us who have no realisation of the problems.
Thanks for the link.
a good brief explination on asperger's
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jmOSMc2Sepg
good definition of add
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ns9ueQcPG3w
dypraxia is much the same thing with the most prominent emphasis on clumsiness.
all three conditions are co-morbid. this means if you have one it will most likely have overlaps with others
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jmOSMc2Sepg
good definition of add
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ns9ueQcPG3w
dypraxia is much the same thing with the most prominent emphasis on clumsiness.
all three conditions are co-morbid. this means if you have one it will most likely have overlaps with others
Excellent video, I've learned somethings there and I'm sure others will too.........Rubens, is the sort of individual everyone should be lucky enough to have amungst their list of friends........if they don't it's there loss.
I would say that most people who indulge in Bushcraft enjoy the diversity of nature and are not Rubens and others like him part of natures diversity..........indead are we not all?
Rubens thinks of himself as different, maybe we should not think of ourselves as normal, just less different.
A forager, will make a deliberate effort to know and understand the plants, their habitats and the useage.........A hunter will study not only the animals but their characteristics and habits.......We tend not to make as much effort in our socialising because we are so familiar with it and expect it to be so for everyone.........we don't expect the same hunting and foraging skills from everyone else we meet!
I've often noticed that those who make inane childish jibes at the likes of Rubens expense often dislike it when the likes of Rubens make a ceribal jibe at there expense! That's not Rubens social skills that are laking is it!
Hopefully things will continue to change as they have done in recent years, via education, awareness and effort.
Smoggy.
I would say that most people who indulge in Bushcraft enjoy the diversity of nature and are not Rubens and others like him part of natures diversity..........indead are we not all?
Rubens thinks of himself as different, maybe we should not think of ourselves as normal, just less different.
A forager, will make a deliberate effort to know and understand the plants, their habitats and the useage.........A hunter will study not only the animals but their characteristics and habits.......We tend not to make as much effort in our socialising because we are so familiar with it and expect it to be so for everyone.........we don't expect the same hunting and foraging skills from everyone else we meet!
I've often noticed that those who make inane childish jibes at the likes of Rubens expense often dislike it when the likes of Rubens make a ceribal jibe at there expense! That's not Rubens social skills that are laking is it!
Hopefully things will continue to change as they have done in recent years, via education, awareness and effort.
Smoggy.
Very interesting Firecrest, I don't know much about what happened at the moot, apart from rumours and whispers. If I did anything to offend or hurt anyone, I'm very sorry, I don't think I did but if I did, then please accept my apologies.
The Ruben story fitted mine like a glove, I fixate up on things to the exclusion of everything else, when he talks about emotional projection onto inanimate objects, I still do that. I feel bad for soft toys in charity shops, being abandonded by their owners, books that have been written in or damaged, I hate it when people hit trees or plants with sticks for no good purpose and I even say goodnight to everything in the house at bedtime, not out loud when I have someone over now, because a friend told me that it was a bit weird to do that once.
I've learnt social skills and to read body language from books and so fit in now, but as a child, I did not, I had no friends to help me learn like he has so books were the only option, I studied them to the exclusivity of everything else.
I think some people may be surprised that everything that I say & do is thought about and analysed before I say or do it, I can do it very fast now, almost without a pause, especially if the same situation or scenario has come up before... After watching that documentary and a few other links from some of the other vids on YT, I think I need to go and get a test for Aspergers.
The Ruben story fitted mine like a glove, I fixate up on things to the exclusion of everything else, when he talks about emotional projection onto inanimate objects, I still do that. I feel bad for soft toys in charity shops, being abandonded by their owners, books that have been written in or damaged, I hate it when people hit trees or plants with sticks for no good purpose and I even say goodnight to everything in the house at bedtime, not out loud when I have someone over now, because a friend told me that it was a bit weird to do that once.
I've learnt social skills and to read body language from books and so fit in now, but as a child, I did not, I had no friends to help me learn like he has so books were the only option, I studied them to the exclusivity of everything else.
I think some people may be surprised that everything that I say & do is thought about and analysed before I say or do it, I can do it very fast now, almost without a pause, especially if the same situation or scenario has come up before... After watching that documentary and a few other links from some of the other vids on YT, I think I need to go and get a test for Aspergers.
You didnt do anything to offend anyone Cobweb certainly not me anyhow.
As for aspergers, Im always suspicious any girls who are into bushcraft and technical things such as cameras often have asperger traits. We are usually described as tomboys in childhood and make friends more easy with boys because the social rituals of other girls are too confusing, not many normal gals hiding in the woods!!. asperger girls are not afraid to persue their interest even though it usually falls outside the range of what other girls like.
There is an online asperger `test` at this site
http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/9.12/aqtest.html
but I don't like it, its very stereotypical and male bias (girls express the syndrome differently)
its questions arent specific enough either, such as "do you prefer to go to them cinema or library?" well that depends what film is showing and what library!
certainly not me anyhow.As for aspergers, Im always suspicious any girls who are into bushcraft and technical things such as cameras often have asperger traits. We are usually described as tomboys in childhood and make friends more easy with boys because the social rituals of other girls are too confusing, not many normal gals hiding in the woods!!. asperger girls are not afraid to persue their interest even though it usually falls outside the range of what other girls like.
There is an online asperger `test` at this site
http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/9.12/aqtest.html
but I don't like it, its very stereotypical and male bias (girls express the syndrome differently)
its questions arent specific enough either, such as "do you prefer to go to them cinema or library?" well that depends what film is showing and what library!
Its surprising the number of people who fail to spot all sorts of disabilities - many attacks of hypoglaecaemia are believed to be drunken behaviour as one example. Sadly most people cannot recognise the symptoms of every disability on every occasion. With my own problems I try to be honest enough to explain when things are abd - but its tough to discuss such problems with relative strangers.
Understanding is needed on both sides I suspect
Red
Understanding is needed on both sides I suspect
Red
xylaria
Bushcrafter (boy, I've got a lot to say!)
I scored 27!!!! So i am just a geek then. I can read emotion on faces and i am very good at analizing body language, so I don't stuff up much, I am good at losing friends and aleinating people though
Whilst we're on the theme... (and I ask this in a light-hearted way...)
At a number of bushcraft gatherings I've heard folks joke about Obsessive Compulsive Disorder - the little neat stacks of beautifully split firewood, the careful packing and repacking of kit, the attention to detail in handling sharps, the fretting over the correct knot for the given job in hand.
Any thoughts? I reckon I've slipped in and out of mild OCD in response to stress at various points in my life. I love the routine, the order, the preparation for bushcraft trips. Am I the only one?
Tobes
At a number of bushcraft gatherings I've heard folks joke about Obsessive Compulsive Disorder - the little neat stacks of beautifully split firewood, the careful packing and repacking of kit, the attention to detail in handling sharps, the fretting over the correct knot for the given job in hand.
Any thoughts? I reckon I've slipped in and out of mild OCD in response to stress at various points in my life. I love the routine, the order, the preparation for bushcraft trips. Am I the only one?
Tobes
I might be a bit thick here but is it even possible to give someone a bat over the head with an axe but in a friendly "banter" sort of way
A "bat" no but maybe a "tap".............it's all relevant......not something I'd normally do myself but I can see how some may..........
Smoggy.
Smoggy.
I can't
I've seen everything from a friendly tap (with a hand) to a friendly rugby tackle but I don't see how hitting someone on the head with an axe, irrespective of what part of the axe was used and the force with which it was used, can be construed under the bluest of blue moons as being "friendly", particularly in the dark.I would like to thank Firecrest for posting this though, I think it has, by accident, brought things to light for me that would've otherwise loomed rather negatively in the background.
I think this demonstrates a serious problem, something that must be addressed; certainly, I knew absolutely nothing about it (never been to a moot, a bit too busy for me..) and I'm sure that quite a few others were the same, even if it was purely that they were unaware of the details behind such encounters. I'm confident that BCUK will work through it, I think it's overall a good bunch here
But education is, of course, necessary. I hope that, even if people do remain overall ignorant of such things, this thread makes them think twice before reacting.Pete
Hi I had symptoms of ADHD (Attention deficit hyperactivity disorder) as a child and now still have symptoms of the adult version ADD (Attention deficit disorder).
My son has been diagnosed with ADHD (and is medicated) and my daughter is showing similar signs.
Areas we (my son and I) seem to i find really hard are any form of organisation, time keeping, memory and concentration.
secondary stuff is social behaviours, my son you can spot a mile off without his Ritalin(jumping climbing just generally looking a bit mental), I am more difficult to notice as an adult you tend to " grow out of the "H" (Hyperactivity), Though as some of my friends know I'm a good actor! outwardly i don't jump around etc but i find it difficult to keep my hands feet still if sitting for a long time.
I find playing with a piece of para cord helpful if I'm sitting down for ages like at my church.
Some of the symptoms are similar to ASD the social stuff mainly, some of my sons teachers have mentione Aspergers to us but it dosen't sound right to us the Dr is also dubious, but i understand the confusion as alot of the symptoms cross over.
Dissorders like these are a problem and aren't easy to sort out, drugs can work to a degree but can just mask other issues.
I believe people with ADHD and ASD can be a real asset to Bushcraft as they often show signs of genius problem solving and different ways of doing things that aren't obvious to others. but it's the same as any other "disability" Treat them/us as you would want to be treated yourself.
My son has been diagnosed with ADHD (and is medicated) and my daughter is showing similar signs.
Areas we (my son and I) seem to i find really hard are any form of organisation, time keeping, memory and concentration.
secondary stuff is social behaviours, my son you can spot a mile off without his Ritalin(jumping climbing just generally looking a bit mental), I am more difficult to notice as an adult you tend to " grow out of the "H" (Hyperactivity), Though as some of my friends know I'm a good actor! outwardly i don't jump around etc but i find it difficult to keep my hands feet still if sitting for a long time.
I find playing with a piece of para cord helpful if I'm sitting down for ages like at my church.
Some of the symptoms are similar to ASD the social stuff mainly, some of my sons teachers have mentione Aspergers to us but it dosen't sound right to us the Dr is also dubious, but i understand the confusion as alot of the symptoms cross over.
Dissorders like these are a problem and aren't easy to sort out, drugs can work to a degree but can just mask other issues.
I believe people with ADHD and ASD can be a real asset to Bushcraft as they often show signs of genius problem solving and different ways of doing things that aren't obvious to others. but it's the same as any other "disability" Treat them/us as you would want to be treated yourself.
BOD
Bushcrafter (boy, I've got a lot to say!)
Good video links there firecrest.
I've often found people like Ruben to be far more interesting to talk to than those trapped in a web of conformity.
I've often found people like Ruben to be far more interesting to talk to than those trapped in a web of conformity.
Okay, several issues need clarifying here.
Firstly, assault is never acceptable.
Secondly, BcUK is not responsible for the behaviour of individuals.
The incident with the axe haft happened at a meet in the Midlands, not at the Moot, and it was not only BcUK members who were present.
However, as this is probably among the bigger forums around it's probably best that this sensitive issue is thrashed out here so it reaches as wide an audience as possible. It would be appreciated though if the facts around claims such as this one were kept clear,
**Shouting at someone who persistantly interrupts, sorry, unless we are aware that someone 'has' a problem then that's kind of to be expected as frustration levels rise when the normal socially acceptable routes have been exhausted. Must try harder is I suspect the wasy for all of us.
**Aspberger's syndrome is not an excuse, it's a reason.
Those diagnosed with the condition are generally very intelligent, they too need to learn, not just everyone else.
I think we can agree that courtesy is the acceptable route to dealing with both these issues. Yes ?
**Hazing and bullying.
Fun's fun but the hell with nonsense is the local phrase.
Assault is assault and is 'never' acceptable.
However, many of the members are, or have been, physical people; the services imbue what used to be called a rough cameraderie, and in some instances it continues in civvy street, but it's also seen in groups of young men. It is part of life.
It is for many normal behaviour. Indeed in many instances it is inclusive behaviour, not intended as bullying or excluding someone from a group.
Do we stop 'all' contact ?? I don't think that's the best route to be honest.
The hug I gave to the young man in question was not intended as assault, could even it be misconstrued ??
Society is complex, we learn the rules, and the changing social situations, all our lives.
Personally I dislike seeing people labelled. I suspect all too many of us recognise facets of ourselves in the descriptions of those considered to be wired differently.
Instead of perceiving them as something removed from mainstream society might it not be better to accept them as being as much individuals as the rest of us ? The corollary is that they have to accept that life is not fair, that not everyone will care to understand their condition, and they too have to make an effort to learn to deal with that while everyone learns a little more tolerance.
Frustration at another's behaviour goes two ways. Sometimes it's easier just to walk away for a bit.
How the hang did people manage in the past ? because none of this is new.
I know the thread has given me food for thought, and my last response is probably not going to be construed as terribly politically correct or very tolerant, but it is firmly grounded in real life.
I like people, I hate seeing someone marginalised or victimised, and if I'm struggling with this, I know it's worse for other folks.
In summation.
Everyone has a right to expect not to be assaulted or bullied.
Everyone has a right to courtesy, and respect for the individual.
If an issue bothers you, speak up. If no one complains, nothing changes.
cheers,
Toddy
Firstly, assault is never acceptable.
Secondly, BcUK is not responsible for the behaviour of individuals.
The incident with the axe haft happened at a meet in the Midlands, not at the Moot, and it was not only BcUK members who were present.
However, as this is probably among the bigger forums around it's probably best that this sensitive issue is thrashed out here so it reaches as wide an audience as possible. It would be appreciated though if the facts around claims such as this one were kept clear,
**Shouting at someone who persistantly interrupts, sorry, unless we are aware that someone 'has' a problem then that's kind of to be expected as frustration levels rise when the normal socially acceptable routes have been exhausted. Must try harder is I suspect the wasy for all of us.
**Aspberger's syndrome is not an excuse, it's a reason.
Those diagnosed with the condition are generally very intelligent, they too need to learn, not just everyone else.
I think we can agree that courtesy is the acceptable route to dealing with both these issues. Yes ?
**Hazing and bullying.
Fun's fun but the hell with nonsense is the local phrase.
Assault is assault and is 'never' acceptable.
However, many of the members are, or have been, physical people; the services imbue what used to be called a rough cameraderie, and in some instances it continues in civvy street, but it's also seen in groups of young men. It is part of life.
It is for many normal behaviour. Indeed in many instances it is inclusive behaviour, not intended as bullying or excluding someone from a group.
Do we stop 'all' contact ?? I don't think that's the best route to be honest.
The hug I gave to the young man in question was not intended as assault, could even it be misconstrued ??
Society is complex, we learn the rules, and the changing social situations, all our lives.
Personally I dislike seeing people labelled. I suspect all too many of us recognise facets of ourselves in the descriptions of those considered to be wired differently.
Instead of perceiving them as something removed from mainstream society might it not be better to accept them as being as much individuals as the rest of us ? The corollary is that they have to accept that life is not fair, that not everyone will care to understand their condition, and they too have to make an effort to learn to deal with that while everyone learns a little more tolerance.
Frustration at another's behaviour goes two ways. Sometimes it's easier just to walk away for a bit.
How the hang did people manage in the past ? because none of this is new.
I know the thread has given me food for thought, and my last response is probably not going to be construed as terribly politically correct or very tolerant, but it is firmly grounded in real life.
I like people, I hate seeing someone marginalised or victimised, and if I'm struggling with this, I know it's worse for other folks.
In summation.
Everyone has a right to expect not to be assaulted or bullied.
Everyone has a right to courtesy, and respect for the individual.
If an issue bothers you, speak up. If no one complains, nothing changes.
cheers,
Toddy
Cheers Toddy
just to reiterrate what I intended in my original post
If somebodies behavior is odd due to whatever label - learn tolerance.
if somebodies behavior is unnacceptable, you don't have to accept it, but you do have to respond in an acceptable manner. Verbal abuse, assault,ect are NOT acceptable forms of reciprication.
Also the point of making a distinction between a social disability and the rest of you, is to make clear that simply point out a problem, if done in the wrong way and not in context is not going to help a person improve. We probably don't even know what your talking about. So if you tell somebody to stop doing something, like standing too close or joining in a conversation don't expect it to actually happen. It takes years. If these things were so easily corrected they would have been corrected years ago, we are talking about neurological hard wiring, we have more gray matter and less white matter. We have smaller areas of the brain related to social understanding but larger brains all over. So these things are not mere behavior and will not change over night, thats why people have to be tolerant
just to reiterrate what I intended in my original post
If somebodies behavior is odd due to whatever label - learn tolerance.
if somebodies behavior is unnacceptable, you don't have to accept it, but you do have to respond in an acceptable manner. Verbal abuse, assault,ect are NOT acceptable forms of reciprication.
Also the point of making a distinction between a social disability and the rest of you, is to make clear that simply point out a problem, if done in the wrong way and not in context is not going to help a person improve. We probably don't even know what your talking about. So if you tell somebody to stop doing something, like standing too close or joining in a conversation don't expect it to actually happen. It takes years. If these things were so easily corrected they would have been corrected years ago, we are talking about neurological hard wiring, we have more gray matter and less white matter. We have smaller areas of the brain related to social understanding but larger brains all over. So these things are not mere behavior and will not change over night, thats why people have to be tolerant
I'm afraid I have to disagree slightly with this bit Firecrest.
if somebodies behavior is unnacceptable, you don't have to accept it, but you do have to respond in an acceptable manner. Verbal abuse, assault,ect are NOT acceptable forms of reciprication.
If the original unacceptable behaviour is verbal abuse or assault, then ,with my own children, who are both autistic and the eldest also has feotal alcohol syndrome and ADHD,
Due to their lack of social understanding it is easier for them to feel the same way as the person they have displayed unacceptable behaviour to.As you say if you tell them to stop what they are doing they don't always understand.I find that a quick and understandable response works better for my own kids,They instantly understand the effects of their own behaviour on others.
Autism and related conditions cover a massive range of people all of whom are affected differently and my approach will not apply to many people with the condition,so my method should not be seen as the way to deal with this condition in others.It works for me and my kids,but not everyone is the same as us.
Please don't take this a dig at what you are saying but as a different of seeing other peoples problems and dealing with them in the way that works best for us and helping them to deal with their problems.
A child psycologist once told me that ,yes they do have severe problems that need certain ways of dealing with ,but they are also kids and some times it's difficult to know where autism ends and general naughtiness starts.If you can find the line between the two states then let me know ,because I can't aleays tell which behaviour is down to their autism and which is down to kids being naughty.
I do agree that we all need to be more tolerant and understanding towards eachother,but sometimes it is difficult to suffer someone elses disability when we don't have to.If a person with difficulties is causing a problem to someone,be it just general interupting or not going away when asked then, they will be told quite bluntly that they are causing a problem and need to go away and come back later when they are prepared to listen.This can often be seen as intolerant ,but it is no more intolerant than constant interupting when people are talking.
It's a very difficult situation for all involved and unfortunately there are no real solutions that will suit all parties.
We all deal with things differently and need to see what others see and how they deal with it.
Tolerance and understanding are very big words.
if somebodies behavior is unnacceptable, you don't have to accept it, but you do have to respond in an acceptable manner. Verbal abuse, assault,ect are NOT acceptable forms of reciprication.
If the original unacceptable behaviour is verbal abuse or assault, then ,with my own children, who are both autistic and the eldest also has feotal alcohol syndrome and ADHD,
Due to their lack of social understanding it is easier for them to feel the same way as the person they have displayed unacceptable behaviour to.As you say if you tell them to stop what they are doing they don't always understand.I find that a quick and understandable response works better for my own kids,They instantly understand the effects of their own behaviour on others.
Autism and related conditions cover a massive range of people all of whom are affected differently and my approach will not apply to many people with the condition,so my method should not be seen as the way to deal with this condition in others.It works for me and my kids,but not everyone is the same as us.
Please don't take this a dig at what you are saying but as a different of seeing other peoples problems and dealing with them in the way that works best for us and helping them to deal with their problems.
A child psycologist once told me that ,yes they do have severe problems that need certain ways of dealing with ,but they are also kids and some times it's difficult to know where autism ends and general naughtiness starts.If you can find the line between the two states then let me know ,because I can't aleays tell which behaviour is down to their autism and which is down to kids being naughty.
I do agree that we all need to be more tolerant and understanding towards eachother,but sometimes it is difficult to suffer someone elses disability when we don't have to.If a person with difficulties is causing a problem to someone,be it just general interupting or not going away when asked then, they will be told quite bluntly that they are causing a problem and need to go away and come back later when they are prepared to listen.This can often be seen as intolerant ,but it is no more intolerant than constant interupting when people are talking.
It's a very difficult situation for all involved and unfortunately there are no real solutions that will suit all parties.
We all deal with things differently and need to see what others see and how they deal with it.
Tolerance and understanding are very big words.
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