Dark Ecology

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RonW

Native
Nov 29, 2010
1,575
121
Dalarna Sweden
Erm, I think you've been reading too many conspiracy theory websites. Or maybe the Daily Mail.

Too much LDL builds up in the blood vessels and will kill you. Eating a balanced diet (not too much of anything) will help prevent this. Simple.

Answer to remark 1; Or you are opting for the easy way out, dismissing the whole thing with these simple words "conspiracy theory", because you either can not understand or do not want to understand.

Answer to remark 2; And that is utter nonsense.
Ask any medicaly educated person, preferably with a specialisation in heart- and vasculairdiseases to name the or any scientific study that clearly proves the connection between cholesterol and mentioned diseases. If you are able to come up with such a study, you'd be the first one! I did and I did not get an answer! And if I am to believe the authors of several books and numerous studies, articles and other publications on this subject than there is no such study. It all seems to be based on assumptions made in the 50's and 60's, which were kept alive and imprinted into the hearts and minds of the people. Reason?? Cold, hard cash...
Don't believe that the farmaceutical companies are raking in that cash by the billions? Try checking their annual balances for a change.
Combine that with the similar huge profits made by companies such as Unilever for all that socalled cholesterollowering food they try to shove down your thoat and you might start to understand why it is so very important to some to keep this lie alive.
And this is just for cholesterol and heart- and vasculairdiseases. Try reading a book by prof.dr. Walter Hartenbach and than read some of the material provided by the sources he uses. (Just start there and do your own research.)

Have any idea how much factorymade medication is perscribed or consumed each year?
Some figures a quick googlesearch coughed up:
In 2009 that was an average of 341 euros per citizin in the Netherlands, Belgium 406, Germany 473 and France 570 euros. That is per head of the population! here's the source in Dutch http://www.sfk.nl/pdf-documenten/data-en-feiten/data-en-feiten-2011
And if all those cholesterolmedication is unnecessary, how much would be necessary off the rest?? And why is the EU trying so hard to ban natural/herbal medication? Just google EU ban on herbal medication and read...
Still no bells ringing??

Warning! This might require actual reading and thinking! And if you do this long enough on various, but related subjects, you might star seeing a pattern..... but I seriously doubt many will ever get passed the initial contestlist on the first page of any book on these subjects.
And these are just 2 examples.

The foodindustry... well.... I mentioned one example in the cholesterolissue, but I guess the term "horsemeat" rings a bell too. How about the belgian hormonescontaining cowmeat scandal a few years ago? I'm sure you can come up with others. The food industry and the farmaceuticalindustry share similar interest, funding each other's or one's own research and employing high ranked puppets. This too can be varified if you.... well... look... and read... and connect the dots.

I'm sorry but that is a bit of a twisted logic.

What point were you trying to make there exactly?

Simply; maths and fysics and exact sciences, correct? numbers are numbers; 1=1, 2=2 and 0=0. Correct so far?
Yet somehow the financial world has been able for years to create money out of nothing. In the beginning there used to be a rate how much money was to be in circulation in relation to a certain amount of gold that was in store. Somehow that got all disconnected, meaning there now is way much more money circulating than is covered by the fysical amount of gold present. There has been a lot of moneyprinting going on without the actual backup of goldbars. Still following? So they made something (money) out of nothing (no gold). Try looking into Federal reserve bank printing money and see what you come up with.
The whole system of credit is based on that principle. You spend money you don't have by loaning it from bank A and you pay intrest. Bank A on the other hand loans money from bank B and pays intrest for that, too and so the chain goes on. And somehow the flow of money gets bigger and bigger... But where does it come from???

Still thinking we should be so trusting?

Science in itself is absolutely not a bad thing, it is what humans or organisations use it for that worries me...

Evidence please...
See the above stated, Corso. That would apply to you, too.

I realy wouldn't worry about the future of this planet - nature has a very interesting way of sorting out problems in the long run...
Very true, Corso.
You might call it "culling the herd".
But I'd very much prefer a different approach, allthough the profession of undertaker might prove to be quit profitable.
And that different approach requires reevaluating the ways we modern people live these days and that starts but not taking for granted what large organisations, be it government, medical society, banks, churches, try to feed us everyday. They all have their own hidden agendas and policies and that has nothing to do with conspiracy theory.

To me that's a term to be used by people who are either too dumb or to lazy to think for themselves or by those who would rather not like others to think for themselves by ridiculing it. Asking questions and looking for answers might indeed reveal things we'd rather not see, but if we see them, that means we can do something about them.
Not wanting to see them, not wanting to point them out and not wanting to fix them makes us part of the problem.

I might be a passionate, idealistic idiot, but I still believe there is hope. That's why I get into these discussions, hoping to reach someone, who then starts using his brain and comes to his own conclusions, maybe even proving me wrong. I sure do hope so!
 
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Corso

Full Member
Aug 13, 2007
5,257
455
none
Unfortunatly i havn't been able to find anything in English by Walter Hartenbach but i'll keep looking

my Pubmed access is quite limited at home but I'll take a better look next week - my speciality is Cancer - and there is little doubt there is a link emerging between fat intake and Cancer risk, conclusive studies are however difficult to create outside a lab. Look how long it took to prove smoking causes cancer - I read a fairly conclusive PHD disertation from the 1930's that demonstrated cacinogenisis.

I have no doubt somone is making alot of money through 'the link between the western lifestyle and illness' the general population wants to eat carp, drink and smoke and they want to take a pill to make them better after doing it - there have always been snake oil salesmen and suckers who'll throw money at them...
 

Bushwhacker

Banned
Jun 26, 2008
3,882
8
Dorset
Lot of worrying going on here. You're all going to give yourselves heart attacks. I'm firmly in the camp of "I couldn't give a rats ar5e because nothing is going to change" we're all consigned to take it as it comes, when/if it does.
 
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Huon

Native
May 12, 2004
1,327
1
Spain
Tin hat, schmin hat. It's the fillings in yer teeth what does it!

Tin? What's with this tin? I have a titanium foil hat. I've managed to source them in bulk from a sweatshop in Spain. The balance of poverty is shifting. We can get cheap bushcrafty stuff handcrafted by exploited children from fairly local sources now :)
 

Bushwhacker

Banned
Jun 26, 2008
3,882
8
Dorset
Tin? What's with this tin? I have a titanium foil hat. I've managed to source them in bulk from a sweatshop in Spain. The balance of poverty is shifting. We can get cheap bushcrafty stuff handcrafted by exploited children from fairly local sources now :)

I sincerely hope said wares are ingrained with the patina of the poor unfortunates' salty tears. It adds authenticity.
 

Huon

Native
May 12, 2004
1,327
1
Spain
I sincerely hope said wares are ingrained with the patina of the poor unfortunates' salty tears. It adds authenticity.

Of course! Pre-aged is best. I get my pre-ripped jeans from the same source. They don't do camo alas. Some pathetic excuse about the toxicity of the dyes but I'm working on that.
 

Maxwellol

Tenderfoot
Feb 10, 2013
90
0
Manchester
Science in itself is absolutely not a bad thing, it is what humans or organisations use it for that worries me...

This.

I'd happily sign up to a one-way trip to Mars, but I'd very much like to know that there was a valid and useful reason for me to go.
 

santaman2000

M.A.B (Mad About Bushcraft)
Jan 15, 2011
16,909
1,114
67
Florida
Answer to remark 1; Or you are opting for the easy way out, dismissing the whole thing with these simple words "conspiracy theory", because you either can not understand or do not want to understand.

Answer to remark 2; And that is utter nonsense.
Ask any medicaly educated person, preferably with a specialisation in heart- and vasculairdiseases to name the or any scientific study that clearly proves the connection between cholesterol and mentioned diseases. If you are able to come up with such a study, you'd be the first one! I did and I did not get an answer....

So why is it that all stidies on longevity and heart disease have the Japanese (who have the least cholesterol in their diets0 living longer than anyone else in the world? Year after year? And they have the least heart disease.
 

santaman2000

M.A.B (Mad About Bushcraft)
Jan 15, 2011
16,909
1,114
67
Florida
Answer to remark 1; Or you are opting for the easy way out, dismissing the whole thing with these simple words "conspiracy theory", because you either can not understand or do not want to understand.

Answer to remark 2; And that is utter nonsense.
Ask any medicaly educated person, preferably with a specialisation in heart- and vasculairdiseases to name the or any scientific study that clearly proves the connection between cholesterol and mentioned diseases. If you are able to come up with such a study, you'd be the first one! I did and I did not get an answer! And if I am to believe the authors of several books and numerous studies, articles and other publications on this subject than there is no such study. It all seems to be based on assumptions made in the 50's and 60's, which were kept alive and imprinted into the hearts and minds of the people. Reason?? Cold, hard cash...
Don't believe that the farmaceutical companies are raking in that cash by the billions? Try checking their annual balances for a change.
Combine that with the similar huge profits made by companies such as Unilever for all that socalled cholesterollowering food they try to shove down your thoat and you might start to understand why it is so very important to some to keep this lie alive.
And this is just for cholesterol and heart- and vasculairdiseases. Try reading a book by prof.dr. Walter Hartenbach and than read some of the material provided by the sources he uses.......

So how much money did Prof. Dr. Hartenbach make from the sales of his book and the accompanying speaking engagements/lectures?
 

Huon

Native
May 12, 2004
1,327
1
Spain
Swings and roundabouts Japanese lower heart attack rate, higher stomach cancer rate, think id rather have a heart attack.

Only really relevant to the Santaman's post if the factors in the Japanese diet that cause lower cholesterol levels also increase the likelihood of stomach cancer. It doesn't look like that is the case:

http://www.livestrong.com/article/361804-japanese-diet-stomach-cancer/
http://pmj.bmj.com/content/81/957/419.full

The incidence also appears to be declining.
 

Corso

Full Member
Aug 13, 2007
5,257
455
none
pretty sure it's the high salt/MSG intake that increases the risk of Stomach cancer, rather than the low cholesterol....
 

andybysea

Full Member
Oct 15, 2008
2,609
0
South east Scotland.
Didnt say it was the low cholesterol just that they do have a slightly higher stomach cancer rate, like the Kurds and Turks have a slightly higher rate of Oesophagus cancer(i read due to there habit of drinking very hot tea)what im getting at is every country will have higher rates of this and that due to national dietry habits etc, personnel i think sugar is the major factor causing health issues in the west rather than fats.
 

Huon

Native
May 12, 2004
1,327
1
Spain
Didnt say it was the low cholesterol just that they do have a slightly higher stomach cancer rate, like the Kurds and Turks have a slightly higher rate of Oesophagus cancer(i read due to there habit of drinking very hot tea)what im getting at is every country will have higher rates of this and that due to national dietry habits etc, personnel i think sugar is the major factor causing health issues in the west rather than fats.

Fair enough. It was just that Santaman was discussing the impact of diet on cholesterol in response to Ron's post that suggests that there is no link between cholesterol and heart disease. I thought you were suggesting that the lower heart disease of the Japanese came at the cost of an increased chance of stomach cancer.

Cheers!

Huon
 

rik_uk3

Banned
Jun 10, 2006
13,320
24
69
south wales
Well I've just ordered a Chinese Takeaway to celebrate the thrashing Wales gave England today, after reading this thread I've a real urge for some MSG :)
 

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