Dark Ecology

[British Red]

Population growth is slowing? So population is growing. In fact the absolute rate of population growth is almost entirely static at between 70 and 90 million a year and has been so for thirty years. The only reason the percentage (rate) is falling is that the total population is rising. This will always be the case with a linear progression.

There are many ways of looking at the human condition - and Ron's is just as valid as "science will find an answer". This probably is indeed a golden age. We can expend our time relaxing or find a way to find a future that suits us.

Even if energy is not a problem (and for many scientific reasons I believe it is), an infinite progression of population is unsustainable - whether it be a linear or exponential trend. We will run out of food, water and other resources. Indeed water wars are already happening.

Doom and gloom can be a problem - but so can complacency

 

[Bushwhacker]

The other is TS Eliot who I came to love in the 4[SUP]th[/SUP] form at secondary school. East Coker (one of the 4 Quartets) says …
… … … In order to arrive there,
To arrive where you are, to get from where you are not,

You must go by a way wherein there is no ecstasy.
In order to arrive at what you do not know

You must go by a way which is the way of ignorance.
In order to possess what you do not possess

You must go by the way of dispossession.
In order to arrive at what you are not

You must go through the way in which you are not.
And what you do not know is the only thing you know
And what you own is what you do not own
And where you are is where you are not.

I was in East Coker on Sunday. It does feel a bit like that after a few pints in the Helyar.

 

[treadlightly]

A more optimistic take on the subject


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BZe4B3nfPJM

 

[RonW]

Well Andy, it appears that our definitions of "bushcrafty" differ slightly.
And yes, by "us" I mean those in what you call the first world. I do believe we consume too much and I do believe that we could easily use half and still prosper. I have no intention for humanity to go back to nature the way you so mockingly put it, but I really believe that we have totally lost the connection to the natural world.
Science is proving to be more and more of a false god. Don't believe what I say? Try looking at the medical science; hart and vasculair diseases for instance. For ages we have been told and tought that fat is bad for you, that cholesterol is a killer and more and more it turns out they were wrong all along and knew it! But already a huge industry had been established, based on those assumptions or dare I say even lies? yes, we have modern medical systems... so what? Yes, they do have treatments for all kinds of illnesses, but how many of these illnesses are related or even a direct result of our way of living? You get pumped full with chemicals for every illness or malfunction you come up with. I wonder what "less developed" people would use for headaches, stumachaches and such. Do they have heart- or vasculair illnesses? Stress? Burnout? Cancer?
What about the science of food? Here too are we being told over and over again that bread(wheat) is good for you, the same as margarine or diaryproducts. We don't need natural herbs and medicine. We can creat artificial ones and at the same time ban all that natural stuff! Here too multibillioneuro industries have been established. Is a trend becoming appearant?
Not taking my word for it? Try googling a bit on wheat belly or paleofood, maybe even cholesterol and then use the stated sources for crossreference and dig a bit deeper. Again I dare you.

So with what science have we left? Maths and physics... because appearantly figures don't lie. Apart from when used in the monetairy- or bankingsystems....
Science used for military purposes.... They make damn sure that works! Even if it only is for destructive purposes.

Ok, how about electrotechnology??
Sure, it works. But at the same time we have become enslaved by it. Who can go without microwave, tv, computer, phones, ipads and related gimmicks?
If even you'd want to, you still MUST use them. Our whole modern way of living is based on these things. Not true? Than how do people have to do their banking? If you want information, use the internet. If you want to deal with governments, I am willing to bet on it that you have to do that online. You can not have a normal life in modern society without these. If you call that freedom, than again our definitions differ slightly.

I could go on and on and on.... but why? Sometimes I really ask myself that, because the vast mayority does not WANT to hear it. Here's where the head in the sand part comes in. The reason why I do so, is that I still believe that there are people out there, willing to listen, smart enough to use their brains and gutsy (or mad. Take your pick) enough to ask questions and idealistic (or mad. Take your pick) enough to do something about it.

If being realistic is being pessimistic.... by all means... again defintions differ slightly...

We have surpassed our golden age. This is the Barbie-age... living in a makebelief world, made of plastic and without contents.

I agree with you 100%. Very well stated, and probably more calmly than I could have done it. I get very agitated by people who spend their time behind a computer posting about the evils of technology while shopping on eBay for retro canvas packs made in the pre WWII era using child labor. We are in effect spoiled college children who sit in coffee houses (the local one, not Starbucks because Starbucks is too big and therefore necessarily evil), and complain about having too much, while daddy is paying $40k per year for them to do so. It's nice to have the luxury to loudly proclaim about how we should be one with nature while sitting at home all winter because your boots aren't warm enough to go outside.

You have me there, Ross! Hightech surveillance reveiled that to you??
Befor making comments like that, it might be a good idea to at least TRY to get some facts right.

, like I said, very well put. I'll try to stay out of this thread because I find that this topic gets personal fast as too many people assume without first learning, and talk without first thinking.

Then by all means do, but if you like to play ball, at least have the courtesy to address people directly and use valid arguements, Ross.

 

[Andy BB]

Funnily enough, Ron, I actually agree with you on much that you say about the modern diet, and some of the sacred cows of the food triangle that are - at the least - suspect. But Homo Sapiens is a very intelligent, and often devious result of evolution - the con trick is nothing new!

However, its then a huge leap to go from there to pretty much condemning all medicine and scientific advances, even if science has been used to develop better weapons. Particularly as you are arguing so strongly on the internet-thingy you say we can all do without! And as for the effectiveness of modern medicine, I suggest you check out the following website (might be of interest to you too British Red!) http://www.worldbank.org/depweb/english/modules/social/pgr/index.html which deals with population growth.

Birth rates are falling - faster in 1st world countries than 3rd world, true, but valid for both. THe only reason the population is still increasing at present (even if much more slowly than predicted a decade or two ago) is that people are living much longer - amazing what medicine and science can do to prolong life nowadays! And as death probably has a statistical peak point, then population growth is not only slowing, but will eventually fall as we reach that mean maximum lifespan.

(Oh, and as I sit at home, recovering from my hip replacement - my second - last week, I may have a personal interest in the efficacy of modern medicine...)

Sorry, but I don't see realism anywhere in your arguments. I do see an abundance of pessimism, and a Don Qixote tilting at the status quo - or reality as I like to see it! You can't remove the bulk of the population, which is what you would need to do to get back to a simpler, living-off-the-land lifestyle without all the modern accoutrements of modern life and science. How many could England support as hunter-gatherers? (After all, the transition from hunter-gatherers to farmers was the start of the "modern" disease, after all!) 1 million? 2? What about the other 58 million already here?

 

[_mark_]

Wow, some fairly surprising post from people on a bushcraft forum? I found the article very interesting though I was surprised to find I shared some of the UB's ideology.

 

[mrcharly]

For ages we have been told and tought that fat is bad for you, that cholesterol is a killer and more and more it turns out they were wrong all along and knew it!

Erm, I think you've been reading too many conspiracy theory websites. Or maybe the Daily Mail.

Too much LDL builds up in the blood vessels and will kill you. Eating a balanced diet (not too much of anything) will help prevent this. Simple.

 

[Stringmaker]

So with what science have we left? Maths and physics... because appearantly figures don't lie. Apart from when used in the monetairy- or bankingsystems....

I'm sorry but that is a bit of a twisted logic.

What point were you trying to make there exactly?

 

[British Red]

Oh, and as I sit at home, recovering from my hip replacement - my second - last week, I may have a personal interest in the efficacy of modern medicine...

Isn't it a terrible shame that its not available to most of human kind?

Still, our comfortable life is supported by those who don't have access to an aspirin let alone a hip replacement.

However, I'm sure you are right Andy, why bother to consider better ways of living? Theres nothing wrong with that picture is there?

 

[milius2]

dark indeed. Have been writing and deleting for past 20min and I'm off to bed. Point not made.... good luck

 

[British Red]

Sleep well my friend!

 

[Andy BB]

Isn't it a terrible shame that its not available to most of human kind?

Still, our comfortable life is supported by those who don't have access to an aspirin let alone a hip replacement.

However, I'm sure you are right Andy, why bother to consider better ways of living? Theres nothing wrong with that picture is there?

Classic! Attempt to induce guilt for benefitting from modern medicine when it isn't yet available to all 7 billion inhabitants on Earth! And from one of the landed gentry no less, BR! I'm delighted to have benefitted from it, and certainly make no apologies for doing so (particularly as the blood sacrifices to the glade spirits weren't having much of an effect on the old joints...)


So it would be better if medicine was available to none, then? Would that be your solution to a "better way of living"? Or maybe it would be more practical to develop civilisation to the point where it was available to all - surely that would be a much more worthwhile aim? Maybe we could work to eradicate diseases that kill or cripple millions - like smallpox for example. OH - my bad - we already have! Or maybe polio - oh wait - we're almost there with that too. Maybe better treatments for rabies, or malaria, or flu,or cataracts........ Goodness, wouldn't it be wonderful if science could actually do something like that, and civilisation providing the underpinning for it?

Maybe we should take all the land off those who have managed to put aside a few acres and a nice home for their retirement, no doubt using money earned from the sweat of their brow supporting that self-same civilisation - divvy it up as a nice collective for those who have nothing?

 

[British Red]

Wow, fantastic obfuscation Andy,

The world is a wonderful place full of kittens and rainbows isn't it.

The fact that operations are paid for by a defunct economy that cannot honour its debts to countries whose citizens cannot afford even basic childhood immunity doesn't trouble the conscience one little bit does it? The fact that the expanding population puts an ever increasing burden on other economies (since we cannot feed ourselves) well, not really a problem?

Develop civilisation? How crushingly naive. The delta between rich and poor is growing - not shrinking. Do you think cataracts have been cured worldwide? DO you honestly believe that? Or Malaria? No?

Still, never mind eh?

Bear in mind YOU are the one saying "its all good, don't worry, the world is fine as it is".

It isn't.

Vast numbers of people starve to death each year, others die from the lack of the most rudimentary healthcare. The very healthcare that you enjoy.

My point on this is the UK should be able to sustain itself - in food, materials, and energy. Not to be able to do so means that we must exploit other countries. This exploitation means that they cannot afford the healthcare that you trumpet as such a triumph.

Failure to acknoweldge that population must be tied to resources - a human scale ecosystem - means that most people are held in bondage to support a minority.

This might be okay with you - it isn't with me.

This requires that we in the so called "First world" act to live within our means. Our food means, our energy means, our medical means.

Unless you can find a way that the UK can feed itself, supply its own energy needs and all the rest, your refusal to acknowledge that "the system" is flawed, means that you believe that we should be supported based on removing those rights from others.

It really is that simple.

 

[Corso]

Science is proving to be more and more of a false god. Don't believe what I say? Try looking at the medical science; hart and vasculair diseases for instance. For ages we have been told and tought that fat is bad for you, that cholesterol is a killer and more and more it turns out they were wrong all along and knew it!

Evidence please...

 

[British Red]

. THe only reason the population is still increasing at present (even if much more slowly than predicted a decade or two ago) is that people are living much longer

Proof please - based on scientific global statistics evidincing significant longevity increases equivalent to 80 million population increase eaxh and every year.

 

[Tengu]

So you mean to say that if some people cannot afford or have no access to a thing then nobody should have it?

 

[Maxwellol]

Yeah, hard to weigh in sensibly on this one.

Sure, the planet could support many more than the current 7bn. But almost all 7bn currently alive are ALL demanding their own car, laptop, ipod, central heating, flatscreen TV. This just isn't possible, and it shows that as a species, our collective culture has become hideous and diseased.

But how could we possibly cure ourselves when we're spread so far and divided so strongly by things like national boundaries and various bat****-crazy religions? It will take a long time to cure and unite 7bn individually-thinking animals, so chances are that we're screwed :/

 

[xylaria]

I found the article quite irrating. We are helping turn a 4 acre field into an edible woodland, for the unitiated it is an orchard with crops interwieved between the trees. The scythe teacher we have is gentle elderly man that was champion scyther in his youth. We dont want machines on the land for quite a few reasons one of which is a rejection of mechanism. Gandi knew more about living with nature than the unibomber, zerzan or the author ever will do.

The reason india has a spinning wheel on it flag is a reminder to people that the essence of living a peaceful non-violent life is to produce you own cloth, your own food, and that true wealth is brought by that peace. Anyone that can live in wildeneress of montana for many years and then go on killing spree has learnt nothing from the peace of nature. Anyone that thinks they are expert enough at sything after a handful of years to able to teach, is arrogant.

Where I live in wales, there is a good size population of people that came to "drop out". I am sort of one them, except I never dropped in the first place. This is what causes the hypocrasy the local green movement, it takes money to "drop out". So you have had "dropped in" first. Although it doesnt take much money to join one the several alternative commuties, but it does take certain attitudes to fit in. Attitudes which come with been a paticular type of really irrating privaliged english middle class. The type that doesnt talk to their nieghbours, doesn't learn welsh or if they do maintain they very english habit of correcting other peoples prononciation, shows no understanding for the local culture, and doesnt try to integrate because the "locals dont understand them". They are incomers that bring their greed, snobbery and power issues with them, the exact qualities they have tried to run away from. In a effort to save the planet they contribute to the distruction of a long standing culture of small scale farms that grew enough food for themselves made their own cloth and made money by selling the products of sheep.

 

[Corso]

I realy wouldn't worry about the future of this planet - nature has a very interesting way of sorting out problems in the long run...

 

[Andy BB]

Originally Posted by Andy BB
. THe only reason the population is still increasing at present (even if much more slowly than predicted a decade or two ago) is that people are living much longer

Proof please - based on scientific global statistics evidincing significant longevity increases equivalent to 80 million population increase eaxh and every year.

Guess you missed the previous posted reference - see again below. Try reading it, especially the bits where it says that "Due to slowing birth rates, population growth rates have started to decline in many countries, although they still remain high in some countries as birth rates have not fallen as rapidly as death rates". Or the bit where it says "Death and birth rates have declined over the past several decades. People are living longer in both the Industrial and developing countries because of increased access to immunisation, primary health care and disease eradication programmes"

Plenty of stats available through the WHO, UN etc to support exactly the same thing. All available - you only have to look!

http://www.worldbank.org/depweb/english/modules/social/pgr/index.html


As to your other post - all I can say is "nice try"! Excellent attempt at redirection away from your initial criticism of me for daring to have hip operations because not everyone else in the world has access to them! I trust your implied altruism will force you to turn over your mansion and lands to those in greater need of them than you (which would be 99.999% of the world's population at a rough guess). No? How many hip operations would the proceeeds of selling your property buy? How many thousands of people's sight could be saved by those funds going towards cataract operations in Africa?

As to the rest, just fluff and wafffle. Not quite sure why you seem so angry that several killer diseases have been eradicated, or are close to being so resolved, or that major steps being taken to ameliorate others? Cataracts for example - I have personally seen cataract teams - and in at least one case, cataract ship - treat thousands of patients, bringing immediate sight back to those otherwise blinded with simple 15 minute treatments in the third world. why is that such a bad thing? Developments in Malaria treatments/defense? The first world bringing relief to those unable to provide it for themselves? Sure there's more we can do, but there's always more we can do.

And of course we cannot forget your classic misrepresentation of what I actually wrote! And I quote from your post "Bear in mind YOU are the one saying "its all good, don't worry, the world is fine as it is"."

Actually I didn't - I said the world was better than it was 100 years ago, and I believed it would get better yet over the next 100 years. But never let the facts get in the way of a good rant, eh?

Another classic was the bit about England becoming totally self-sufficient. Total red herring of course, as anyone with even a basic understanding of macroeconomics or finance knows - the world isn't like that any more, particularly for a country as over-populated as England is, with limited access to certain resources necessary in an industrial, modern society. But then its always been so, hasn't it - after all, international trade is just a more complex form of barter which has been around for thousands of years; "I've got access to lots of flint - you've got some spare sheep - lets swap!"