Are you sure?
Someone makes the first discovery and convinced others to try it.
The experiment is certainly worth the doing. Silk might work. Maybe paracord would work for vegans.
I’m not mocking, I’m not even joking. The experiment is worthwhile.
Copper Bracelet Wearers
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Someone makes the first discovery and convinced others to try it.
The experiment is certainly worth the doing. Silk might work. Maybe paracord would work for vegans.
I’m not mocking, I’m not even joking. The experiment is worthwhile.
I am very wary of things resting on my skin. I have over-reactive skin. I can't wear anything that's tight, or rubs, I have horrendous reactions to insect bites, I over react to chemicals that are insecticidal or fungicidal or household cleaning chemicals, even the wrong washing up liquid sets it off.
Just my body's response. I'm not the only one though.
But, knowing that, and knowing that this kind of reaction is possible, I'm inclined to look at the things like the magnets and the copper bracelets with a kind of jaundiced eye.
I still don't know whether we can absorb copper in minute quantities through the unbroken non mucosal skin. The skin is generally kind of intended not to be porous that way, which is why we have reactions against stuff.
I suspect that unless the copper is in a specific form that it's not going to be absorbable, and I doubt that that form is the bangle. Mine turned my skin blue, but I can do that with vinegar or ammonia on bits of copper pipe too. That's just making a mordant. The blue washes off my skin in a couple of days though, so it's in the outer layers of the epidermis which isn't going to be there long.
I think there's a lot of hype around, but If they make you feel good, in any way, if they reassure you, in any way, if they help your mood or how you feel physically, then that's no bad thing.
Just my body's response. I'm not the only one though.
But, knowing that, and knowing that this kind of reaction is possible, I'm inclined to look at the things like the magnets and the copper bracelets with a kind of jaundiced eye.
I still don't know whether we can absorb copper in minute quantities through the unbroken non mucosal skin. The skin is generally kind of intended not to be porous that way, which is why we have reactions against stuff.
I suspect that unless the copper is in a specific form that it's not going to be absorbable, and I doubt that that form is the bangle. Mine turned my skin blue, but I can do that with vinegar or ammonia on bits of copper pipe too. That's just making a mordant. The blue washes off my skin in a couple of days though, so it's in the outer layers of the epidermis which isn't going to be there long.
I think there's a lot of hype around, but If they make you feel good, in any way, if they reassure you, in any way, if they help your mood or how you feel physically, then that's no bad thing.
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There was research into placebo and notebook effect. It was something like a group of ppl given something for a condition some told it doesn't work for the condition others it does work. Both groups had equivalent success which was higher than the third, control group that got nothing. I suspect the idea of medical or scientific expert or someone your have a reason to trust or believe gives you something is the effect.
If a relative bought you a copper bracelet for your arthritis might well be enough to make it work for you as a placebo.
The question is whether your brain telling you that it's working through placebo actually counts as it working. What I mean is if there's no mechanism for it to have a positive effect, even if your mind says your body is feeling a positive effect then is it not really working but your mind is overriding your body and making you believe you're feeling a positive.
Kind of mind overriding body?
If a relative bought you a copper bracelet for your arthritis might well be enough to make it work for you as a placebo.
The question is whether your brain telling you that it's working through placebo actually counts as it working. What I mean is if there's no mechanism for it to have a positive effect, even if your mind says your body is feeling a positive effect then is it not really working but your mind is overriding your body and making you believe you're feeling a positive.
Kind of mind overriding body?
I think that there are many physical effects brought about by the psyche / mind.
It’s no good telling the religious faithful or the superstitious that their fears or successes are ill founded. That is not their reality.
Hypnotism can bring about anaesthesia.
I understand that there is some evidence that imagining performing strenuous exercise on a regular basis brings about muscle development. I have no idea to what degree.
I am pretty kack-handed when it comes to tools but I find that mentally rehearsing a task over and over seems to make it go right.
All of this is of course subjective but that is exactly the point. If a subjective cause has a beneficial effect in the perception of the beneficiary then that is exactly what it does.
Others have already pointed out the risks of masking or denying symptoms that need to be treated professionally.
It’s no good telling the religious faithful or the superstitious that their fears or successes are ill founded. That is not their reality.
Hypnotism can bring about anaesthesia.
I understand that there is some evidence that imagining performing strenuous exercise on a regular basis brings about muscle development. I have no idea to what degree.
I am pretty kack-handed when it comes to tools but I find that mentally rehearsing a task over and over seems to make it go right.
All of this is of course subjective but that is exactly the point. If a subjective cause has a beneficial effect in the perception of the beneficiary then that is exactly what it does.
Others have already pointed out the risks of masking or denying symptoms that need to be treated professionally.
I wore a knock off Leatherman Tread for a while (stainless steel) and it seemed to make people think I was going to deck them. In terms of effects on me, it did a reasonable job of plucking out wrist hairs.
The issue is even a placebo effect thoroughly believed isn't a working treatment. It's not making any condition better just fooling yourself it is helping. Even without that effect masking symptoms preventing seeking treatment it's still a negative positive imho. By this I believe the effect of delusion through placebo effect is negative even if it makes you more comfortable in your mind. That's probably contentious.
It makes you wonder though; placebos can have a noticeable, quantifiable effect.
So, the body can do it itself.....now how do we learn to make it do it without drugs or placebo ?
I take @Paul_B 's point though, and belief that things are fine is probably as bad as self diagnosis when something is really amiss.
So, the body can do it itself.....now how do we learn to make it do it without drugs or placebo ?
I take @Paul_B 's point though, and belief that things are fine is probably as bad as self diagnosis when something is really amiss.
If I’m looking for pain relief and I get pain relief then that is a perfectly valid treatment provided the underlying cause of the pain is being investigated and treated. Placebo won’t mend my broken leg.
It isn’t “kidding”, it isn’t “delusion” and it isn’t “superstition”. I can hardly be deluded about pain relief.
Just to clarify, I don’t use so called alternative medicine. If others find such useful then all power to them. I am discussing this from what I have read of the scientific perspective.
No I’m not about to create yet another interminable list of unrecognisable authors and graphs of dubious parameter. I watch TV as you all do and I receive New Scientist weekly. If anyone is practically interested in source material then PM me.
Placebo isn’t always effective but where it is it’s a useful medical tool.
It isn’t “kidding”, it isn’t “delusion” and it isn’t “superstition”. I can hardly be deluded about pain relief.
Just to clarify, I don’t use so called alternative medicine. If others find such useful then all power to them. I am discussing this from what I have read of the scientific perspective.
No I’m not about to create yet another interminable list of unrecognisable authors and graphs of dubious parameter. I watch TV as you all do and I receive New Scientist weekly. If anyone is practically interested in source material then PM me.
Placebo isn’t always effective but where it is it’s a useful medical tool.
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I think we have different ideas about the definition of the word deluding.
verb [ T ] /dɪˈlud/ to fool yourself into believing something is true because you want it to be true, when it is actually not true:
If I had pain and I no longer have pain then I am not deluded according to that definition.
I can understand that to some people there seems to be something inauthentic about placebo but neuroscience is young and like all science it is learning.
verb [ T ] /dɪˈlud/ to fool yourself into believing something is true because you want it to be true, when it is actually not true:
If I had pain and I no longer have pain then I am not deluded according to that definition.
I can understand that to some people there seems to be something inauthentic about placebo but neuroscience is young and like all science it is learning.
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My point is that you're deluding yourself that the copper bracelet is doing it that anything is actually doing anything to improve your arthritic joints. That the only thing that's working is the ability of your brain to have a placebo effect on your perception of the pain. You might be happy with that but the delusion is there as well. No matter how much of a scientist, logical or educated person you might be, it's there.
Perhaps we speak from different realities.
We agree that the pain (or other symptom) can be relieved by a placebo effect such as that which can arise from wearing a copper bracelet.
I would agree that it is unlikely to be addressing underlying causes - though it is possible that respite improves prognosis.
We simply disagree on the degree of authenticity of the application.
I can live with that.
We agree that the pain (or other symptom) can be relieved by a placebo effect such as that which can arise from wearing a copper bracelet.
I would agree that it is unlikely to be addressing underlying causes - though it is possible that respite improves prognosis.
We simply disagree on the degree of authenticity of the application.
I can live with that.
(Sorry not OP but prompted by it.)
I’m going to try an experiment. I’m not good at this sort of thing but:
I am in my seventies and unfit.
I know what climbing, hillwalking and press ups feel like. Apparently this is important. It’s no use me imagining using gym equipment because I’ve never been inside a gym and neither the subconscious nor the conscious sensations are in my memory.
I’m not very disciplined and I’m not going to report progress but I am intrigued to see what happens. Climbing the Wrekin in my arm chair - well let’s see.
I have rheumatoid arthritis.....and have tholed it now for 35 years.
I am one of the lucky ones because I can still move. With pain at times, with uncertainty, but I can move.
Some days I can actually run up the stairs. Others I can't get down them.
I know, without a shadow of a doubt, that my mental/mindscape/mood greatly affects my ability to function normally.....well as normal as I can when it all hurts.
So, when I read about placebos and other mind and mood 'tricks', I have to wonder more about how we could reliably access those ? how we could make the body do it itself. The disease I endure is one where the body attacks it's own joints, and I have truly awful side effects from any of the medications available. So, I do without, and yet I can still move, still function; for a given value of function.
That the disease is active is demonstrable by my blood tests, yet despite high levels that would indicate greater damage, I can still use my joints.
By nature I am an optimist, there's always another way. I'm not one to dwell and wallow in problems, I'd rather find a solution. There's always a solution of some sort, even if it's just a step on the way.
Does that optimistic nature carry over ? do those who think the bracelets will do good, actually benefit from using them ? or placebos ?
I am dubious about absorbing metals through the skin, yet you can rub raw garlic on the soles of your feet, and hours later taste it in your mouth. The allicin in the garlic does get through the skin.
So, I don't know about the metals. It's an interesting theory, it seems to make a noticeable difference to a lot of people.
Who knows ?
I am one of the lucky ones because I can still move. With pain at times, with uncertainty, but I can move.
Some days I can actually run up the stairs. Others I can't get down them.
I know, without a shadow of a doubt, that my mental/mindscape/mood greatly affects my ability to function normally.....well as normal as I can when it all hurts.
So, when I read about placebos and other mind and mood 'tricks', I have to wonder more about how we could reliably access those ? how we could make the body do it itself. The disease I endure is one where the body attacks it's own joints, and I have truly awful side effects from any of the medications available. So, I do without, and yet I can still move, still function; for a given value of function.
That the disease is active is demonstrable by my blood tests, yet despite high levels that would indicate greater damage, I can still use my joints.
By nature I am an optimist, there's always another way. I'm not one to dwell and wallow in problems, I'd rather find a solution. There's always a solution of some sort, even if it's just a step on the way.
Does that optimistic nature carry over ? do those who think the bracelets will do good, actually benefit from using them ? or placebos ?
I am dubious about absorbing metals through the skin, yet you can rub raw garlic on the soles of your feet, and hours later taste it in your mouth. The allicin in the garlic does get through the skin.
So, I don't know about the metals. It's an interesting theory, it seems to make a noticeable difference to a lot of people.
Who knows ?
A cross over from a VERY different forum but-
Might you enjoy a mind experiment?
Am I right that you’ve worn a copper bracelet in the past and know what it feels like? You know the intended effect.
So:
Can you envisage the bracelet on your wrist? Can you “feel” the sensation of it being there?
Do you think you can recall that image intermittently as and when you think of it, over a prolonged period?
Can you t think of a material that you can bear against your skin that you could wear in place of the copper bracelet (paracord?) that might remind you of the copper bracelet when you catch sight of it?
Might be an interesting study.
I presume from your post above that your condition is regularly monitored.
It absolutely does not matter that you know you are invoking a placebo effect.
Deliberate and aware placebo might be the way forward.
Might you enjoy a mind experiment?
Am I right that you’ve worn a copper bracelet in the past and know what it feels like? You know the intended effect.
So:
Can you envisage the bracelet on your wrist? Can you “feel” the sensation of it being there?
Do you think you can recall that image intermittently as and when you think of it, over a prolonged period?
Can you t think of a material that you can bear against your skin that you could wear in place of the copper bracelet (paracord?) that might remind you of the copper bracelet when you catch sight of it?
Might be an interesting study.
I presume from your post above that your condition is regularly monitored.
It absolutely does not matter that you know you are invoking a placebo effect.
Deliberate and aware placebo might be the way forward.
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I like the concept of deliberate and aware placebo.
Yes I can imagine the bracelet around my wrist, but I already use a kind of mind thing to cool down actively inflamed joints.
I tell you what greatly affects all of it though; how much sound sleep I manage. I suspect that that's a much underrated and ignored part of the whole thing.
I wonder if those who are wearing the bracelets notice a difference ?
Up to my eyeballs in apples and raspberries and a late crop of rhubarb. So far I've made thirty jars this morning, and I'm not near finished.
Ehm; I will have a play with the imagined bracelet idea though, and report back in due course
I hope @Kepis reads this thread, because his disease was a rapid onset and an utterly devastating life change.
Sometimes it's well worth the effort to keep an open mind
Yes I can imagine the bracelet around my wrist, but I already use a kind of mind thing to cool down actively inflamed joints.
I tell you what greatly affects all of it though; how much sound sleep I manage. I suspect that that's a much underrated and ignored part of the whole thing.
I wonder if those who are wearing the bracelets notice a difference ?
Up to my eyeballs in apples and raspberries and a late crop of rhubarb. So far I've made thirty jars this morning, and I'm not near finished.
Ehm; I will have a play with the imagined bracelet idea though, and report back in due course
I hope @Kepis reads this thread, because his disease was a rapid onset and an utterly devastating life change.
Sometimes it's well worth the effort to keep an open mind
Yup, im following this thread ToddyI hope @Kepis reads this thread, because his disease was a rapid onset and an utterly devastating life change.
Sometimes it's well worth the effort to keep an open mind
as i posted earlier i wear a copper bracelet, as did my mother and my grandfather, whether it works or not i don't know, but its a part of me now and i feel naked without it, as i put up before, my Consultant told me that "it can't hurt to wear it" and if you think it helps, it probably does to a point, its all about having a Positive mental Attitude, my disease is what it is, i can't change it, i have it for the rest of my life, so i have to live with it, but i can and have made life choices and changes that will help to control it, the drugs help too lol another saying i like is "i have arthritis, but arthritis doesn't have me". But those flare ups, my gawd, do they hurt, i had the onset of of one this morning, so i put my compression glove/support on my right wrist and then turned a round stick into a smaller round stick, just made shavings, now having turned my mind to something else and lost myself in my thoughts, it all feels so much better, as i say to people it's mind over matter, i don't mind so it doesn't matter
. BTW, they changed my diagnosis, i now have Rheumatoid and Osteo.I always thought that the copper bracelets were supposed to induce a magnetic field and it was that which supposedly had some therapeutic effect. Some bracelets have magnets built in for this purpose. Given that it's all bunkum anyway, you might as well say it works by magic.
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