Controversial way to signal.

[cbr6fs]

Are we saying that flares are good or bad?

Depends what you are doing and where you are.
Flares only really have one purpose so it's a device that's taking up space and weight that you might never use.
It's also a bit hit and miss as to if anyone would see it if you are in the woods or in certain areas like a gully.
Then there is the fact that most folks aren't used to seeing flares, so if someone sees it they might not think it's a emergency.

On my boat i have flares, i don't carry them when out hiking though.

Does the manufacturers of laser flares make them without any regard to asking advice from aviation authorities?

No idea, looked at them but to my eyes you have the unreliability of a electronic device with batteries but for no real gain over a signal flare.

Should we all carry a bag full of first aid bits and bobs, whistles, phones, survival tins regardless?

Bit of a stretch to say "a bag full" my FAK, emergency bivvy bag, torch and whistle take up very little room.

For phones, it's really only a phone that's going to get you off a mountain if say you fell and injured your leg.
Maybe you won't have a signal, but if you blow your whistle long enough in the UK there is a good chance someone will come to you during the day time.
They will then more than likely have to walk to a area that has a signal to get help.

Survival tins tend to be pretty much useless, as i said a snare, wire saw, fishing like and hook and the like found in most kits would be absolutely useless in most emergencies.

Should we all have a medical qualification before going anywhere?

Wouldn't say a medical qualification is needed, i would say that if every person about 13 years old had basic resuscitation and first aid training that was kept up to date and current it would save a few lives every year.

 

[mrcharly]

Again i'm struggling here to pick up if your post was intended to be funny or not.

Problem i'm having is, if it was intended as humour then it's not funny.
If on the other hand it's actually your opinion then you are so wrong i'm amazed you would post it on a outdoors forum like this.

Do you understand that people twist ankles, break bones, suffer concussion, heat stroke, heat attacks etc while out in the country?

Could you please explain how these injured parties are to signal for help in the middle of a moor in summer?
Or are you suggesting that someone with a broken leg should walk out of a situation like that?

This is post covers everything I'd have said.

I usually take a whistle and a torch - preferably one with a bright light and a low-power-drain flash. A cheap bike rear led light serves as a reading light when camping and will run on hours on the flash setting. Great for helping rescuers find you.

A friend of mine, a super fit bear of a guy, recently collapsed and nearly died of a hitherto unknown heart problem. He was fortunate to be arriving at a pub at the time, where there happened to be an A&E nurse having a drink. Air ambulance sent for.

If it had been at night, away from a pub, I imagine it would have played out with one person racing off (they were on bikes) to somewhere that had a phone signal. The people staying with the ill person would ideally have some way of signalling to pinpoint their position - bright torches (that we all love) are good for this.

Flares . . . well, the bloody things go out of date, are difficult to dispose of and can be dangerous. I have two bags full in my shed and nowhere wants to take them for disposal!

 

[Goatboy]

On the laying out of a space blanket, it would be more visible with a strobe in the center of it, but have found that laid out on a snowy landscape it just blends in or looks like a sheet of ice. The old fashioned orange survival bags on the other hand not only provide better move robust protection from the elements but if you cut them open and spread them out make a much bigger more visible target in more terrains. (It's amazing how a couple of hundred feet make things shrink into the environment for a pilot though. Used to pack a very long piece of silk in my bag that could be used for a variety of things, but attached to a stick/pole where it could flutter in the wind drew a lot of attention. Also a little pocket foil kite with a strobe tied underneath gives you height so as to better attract attention. have never used the rescue laser flares, but reading their bumf HERE it does seem a good idea.

 

[Joe tahkahikew]

I've discovered that the most remote place in the UK is only a few miles from a road. In England my friend tells me that the furthest place from a road is even less than a few miles.

There are no bears, Moose, or other dangerous critters. I was wondering what do you guys think is going to happen that you need to make emergency signals in this UK ?

 

[BigMonster]

1. The topic was purely theoreticall regarding signalling. UK, Alaska or planet Mars.
2. **** happends that can make those "few miles" impossible to overcome. Lake district 4 weeks ago I fell on my back during a light scramble and I was an inch from calling rescue. Going back to the car 12km took me 6 hours and I was able to make it only because of good weather, strong pain killers and help of friends.

 

[cbr6fs]

I've discovered that the most remote place in the UK is only a few miles from a road. In England my friend tells me that the furthest place from a road is even less than a few miles.

There are no bears, Moose, or other dangerous critters. I was wondering what do you guys think is going to happen that you need to make emergency signals in this UK ?

To quote myself

people twist ankles, break bones, suffer concussion, heat stroke, heat attacks etc while out in the country

You then have very changeable weather.
Earlier this year we started out a hike in the Lake District, when we left the car it was 25c and i was in a short sleeved teeshirt, 6 hours later i was in my tent in my sleeping bag with my down jacket on, the temp had dropped to 5c and it was peeing it down with rain.

I've been caught out in very thick fog on kinder scout a area i know like the back of my hand, i knew where we were and what direction to go in, but with the peat sucking your leg in up to your knee or hip in places, it was tough going, so we waited out the weather.

Another time i was caught out in a white out on the Brecon Beacons, this time i was intending to stay out so had my tent with me, but i had to pitch hours earlier than i wanted as i couldn't see much more than 5m to 10m in front of me.

You also get inexperienced or just plain daft folks trying to hike up Ben Nevis in sandals and shirts, so they get caught out.

 

[tsitenha]

My friend was the recipient of a laser flash, great joke, he now has permanent damage in one eye, blind in the second. Use a chemical light on a cord and break it, shake it twirl it around, much better idea, no fuel needed. Just don't hit yourself in the head in the process.

 

[BlueTrain]

I think the only sensible advice in this thread has been from Mr. cbr6fs. Tell someone exactly where you're going and don't go anywhere else.

The basic problem here is not the signaling method but rather that someone has to be looking for you in the first place. A smoke signal when seen by a passing aircraft is just smoke, not a signal. It's like someone flashing their headlights at you on the highway: what are they trying to tell you?

There might only be two reasons for someone to be looking for you from the air. One, if you have arranged for an air drop of supplies because you're going to be crossing a great desert or something. I don't imagine many people do that. The other reason is because you've gone missing for three days and finally someone convinces someone with an airplane to go look for you. First, you have to hang on until someone starts to worry. Nothing will happen the first day, so you have to expect to spend the night where you hadn't planned to. Then, if you can, you have to get to a place where you or your signal can be spotted from the air. If you have a cell phone (I don't) and reception, you're in luck. Otherwise, you have to make your own luck.

They won't look for you (from the air) in the dark but it might be a cloudy day. I'd say a strobe would be a good idea. Fires have issues. I'd also say that signaling with a laser probably isn't as easy as one thinks, same as with a mirror. A plastic ground sheet would probably show up very will if it were in a contrasting color, which would be white in most places, but you'd still have to be in the open.

 

[santaman2000]

....They won't look for you (from the air) in the dark but it might be a cloudy day....

Most ground searches are suspended after dark as well. And air searches usually stop on overcast days.

 

[janso]

I would disagree on ground searches being suspended after dark; I've been on plenty for missing persons, especially high risk mispers.
I'm no specialist, but wouldn't a plane look at smoke, especially coloured smoke, and investigate a little? I know at sea, any 'signal' which looks like distress is investigated by other vessels


Sent from my hidey hole using Tapatalk... sssh!

 

[santaman2000]

I would disagree on ground searches being suspended after dark; I've been on plenty for missing persons, especially high risk mispers.
I'm no specialist, but wouldn't a plane look at smoke, especially coloured smoke, and investigate a little? I know at sea, any 'signal' which looks like distress is investigated by other vessels


Sent from my hidey hole using Tapatalk... sssh!

-Regarding ground searches; I did say "most." At least over here; unless the searchers have tracking dogs available.
-As for the aircraft investigating smoke, well, yes. IF they are search aircraft. On the other hand, commercial airliners or other non search aircraft wouldn't be likely too unless they had prior knowledge of somebody missing in the area (as Blue train stated about there being limited reasons why there would be an aerial search) OR possibly in the case of a small private plane just being nosey while pleasure flying.
-At sea I generally agree.

 

[cbr6fs]

-Regarding ground searches; I did say "most." At least over here; unless the searchers have tracking dogs available.
-As for the aircraft investigating smoke, well, yes. IF they are search aircraft. On the other hand, commercial airliners or other non search aircraft wouldn't be likely too unless they had prior knowledge of somebody missing in the area (as Blue train stated about there being limited reasons why there would be an aerial search) OR possibly in the case of a small private plane just being nosey while pleasure flying.
-At sea I generally agree.

You also have to consider the terrain, it's rare a plane is used for land based searches in the UK, less rare a helicopter but still unlikely in low land or heavily wooded areas.

On mountains, helicopters are used more regular, but then you'd struggle to find anything to burn on the more visited mountains in the UK, so it would be dangerous to rely on smoke as a signalling method.

A whistle and torch work, they're cheap, light weight and with modern torches at least extremely reliable, so i don't see any real advantage to less reliable, less known and less efficient ways of signalling.

 

[John Fenna]

Medical emergencies, injuries in the hills etc
The only time I ever had to signal for help was when - during the Great Drought of 1976 - I collapsed due to dehydration/heat exhaustion while walking The Pennine Way (normally a very well watered route!) on my own.
Having gone off route (down Crowden Great Brook) to find water I collapsed. When I regained consciousness I was able to signal for help with my whistle although I could not count to 6 to make the official signal...
I was rescued by a school group and a member of the Mountain Rescue Team wearing a short skirt and Dr Schole sandals!
We may not have the biggest wilderness or the wildest beasts but sometimes we find signal methods useful all the same...

I've discovered that the most remote place in the UK is only a few miles from a road. In England my friend tells me that the furthest place from a road is even less than a few miles.

There are no bears, Moose, or other dangerous critters. I was wondering what do you guys think is going to happen that you need to make emergency signals in this UK ?

 

[Laurentius]

I've discovered that the most remote place in the UK is only a few miles from a road. In England my friend tells me that the furthest place from a road is even less than a few miles.

There are no bears, Moose, or other dangerous critters. I was wondering what do you guys think is going to happen that you need to make emergency signals in this UK ?

You are assuming level terrain, you can slip and fall within sight of a main road but no-one is going to just happen by because you are off the beaten track. You may well only be a few miles from civilisation even in the middle of the Lairig Ghru, but if you are caught out in a blizzard and are unprepared you are in trouble.

Of course hill walking and bushcrafting are two mutually exclusive activities aren't they?

Mind you the worst that has ever happened to me is getting stuck in a bog, tis a bugger to pull yourself out when the mud is trying to suck your boots off

 

[BlueTrain]

I agree that a bad fall is likely to be the most serious and incapacitating thing that could happen to a person in the woods--even more so at home. It is even conceivable that you could also get a serious puncture wound at the same time. So first, you are extra careful when you go walking in the woods, the same way you are when you wash the good china that only gets used at Christmas.

But no matter how careful you are, if you keep at it, sooner or later things happen. A twisted ankle, chipped heel bone, chipped china, crazed teapot and so on. I've never been immobilized, however, but there's a first time for everything. Even though I go to places that are relatively busy, I couldn't count on anyone happening by to lend a hand or even being close enough to hear a signal. Even then a signal would have to be recognized as a signal and not a random noise from a bunch of kids. I keep wondering how people knew that Lassie was trying to tell them that Timmy had fallen down a well. Ultimately, you have to rely on yourself first.

I've frequently mentioned the danger of falling tree limbs but frankly you'd have to be extremely unlucky for that to happen. Unfortunately, the places I go are heavily wooded and there's not much open area. High winds will make for a nervous night in a tent. I've never actually read or heard of anyone being injured that way.

 

[BlueTrain]

You know, the more I think about it, I think there is a problem with people expecting to be rescued and not doing anything themselves, either beforehand, by being prepared, or when something happens. There is a degree of that present with those who skimp on necessities when they're out and end up having to depend on others. It's irresponsible.

 

[cbr6fs]

I agree that a bad fall is likely to be the most serious and incapacitating thing that could happen to a person in the woods--even more so at home. It is even conceivable that you could also get a serious puncture wound at the same time. So first, you are extra careful when you go walking in the woods, the same way you are when you wash the good china that only gets used at Christmas.

But no matter how careful you are, if you keep at it, sooner or later things happen. A twisted ankle, chipped heel bone, chipped china, crazed teapot and so on. I've never been immobilized, however, but there's a first time for everything. Even though I go to places that are relatively busy, I couldn't count on anyone happening by to lend a hand or even being close enough to hear a signal. Even then a signal would have to be recognized as a signal and not a random noise from a bunch of kids. I keep wondering how people knew that Lassie was trying to tell them that Timmy had fallen down a well. Ultimately, you have to rely on yourself first.

I've frequently mentioned the danger of falling tree limbs but frankly you'd have to be extremely unlucky for that to happen. Unfortunately, the places I go are heavily wooded and there's not much open area. High winds will make for a nervous night in a tent. I've never actually read or heard of anyone being injured that way.

Something else to consider is age.

Joints, balance, bone density, muscle mass ALL start declining when we reach 50.

A stumble that would have a 20 year old version of us laughing could well affect the mobility of 50 year old version of ourselves.

Even getting fatter has an effect as it puts more stress on our joints and increases our center of gravity.

I've had several instances where either someone in our party or someone we've come across has sustained an injury bad enough to make walking out on their own impossible.

Had a mate badly twist his ankle, fortunately i had enough wood, duct tape, cordage and bandages to make a splint and a walking crutch, took an absolute eternity to cover a few km to the road, but we managed to get out without needing to call SAR.
Another time a person in our party fell forward, wasn't particularly dramatic and it wasn't on particularly steep ground, but they happened to fall with their knee right onto a sharp rock.

That time SAR needed calling and she was driving off the mountain/hill in the back of a defender.

I've broken my arm and thumb on separate occasions while out mountain biking, managed to strap both up enough to ride out.
Had a mate break his collar bone when MTBing as well, he was able to walk to the nearest road and wait till i bought the car.

Had a couple of instances where it would have been foolish to continue the weather was THAT bad.
On both occasion i waited out the weather, but on both occasions i had my tent, sleeping bag etc with me.

To be 1000% honest i'm not sure i would have waited the weather out if i didn't have a tent.
I certainly would have continued longer.

I used to go out with just a bottle of water when i was a kid, even in areas i didn't know well.
The first time i did Ben Nevis i had a bottle of lemonade in my pocket and a pair of converse tennis shoes on.

It's really only after experiencing problems and seeing how often they occur that i've gotten more concerned on safety.

I've been cold enough that if i had flame thrower and 5 liters of petrol i still couldn't have made a fire.
So i try to give realistic problems a realistic solution rather than some dreamed up fantasy that some TV producer thought would be good for ratings.
Hence not wanting to rely on finding fuel for a fire, shelter etc etc.

If it's not in my rucksack and i don't know 100% i can recreate it or use then it's just not a safe option for me.

 

[cbr6fs]

You know, the more I think about it, I think there is a problem with people expecting to be rescued and not doing anything themselves, either beforehand, by being prepared, or when something happens. There is a degree of that present with those who skimp on necessities when they're out and end up having to depend on others. It's irresponsible.

Problem is, if you are alone and you have sustained a serious leg injury then it's extremely tough and dangerous to walk/drag yourself out of a situation like that.
Throw in steep terrain with some serious drops and it gets even worse.

I do a lot of hiking at night, what with the kids, it being hot during the day in summer and dark when i finish work in the winter then it's often the only spare time i have.
Even if i don't start a hike in the dark most finish then.

So even though on my regular local routes i can see apartments and if the wind is blowing right smell the souvlaki shops, IF i sustain a mobility limiting injury and there is no mobile signal it's highly unlikely someone will walk near me.
My family know the route i'm taking and when i'm expected back. but it would take a few hours before they'd be able to get anyone, add a couple of hours before they call anyone, then say 2 hours before they find me.

Then i recon i'll be hanging around for 4 to 6 hours, this is on a mountain on the outskirts of Athens and one where with binoculars i can literally watch the TV in my home office.

For more remote areas i hike the recon they'd need 8 hours plus before they'd be able to get anyone out to me.

So i take what i feel i need to be able to survive a unexpected night out.
I don't want to rely on being able to get a fire going because i know in real world scenarios that's not always possible, so i carry with me everything i need to be able to survive a night.
In summer that's be plenty of water, in winter that'll be a down jacket in my rucksack or a warm pullover.
I always carry a whistle and a torch even when not hiking (very active earthquake zone) so if i'm conscious then i can at least direct rescue to me quicker, day or night.

I think that it's not a bad way of thinking.

 

[BlueTrain]

Mr. cbr6fs, I am 68 and I'm painfully aware of what happens after age 50. The trails get steeper and rougher, the summers get hotter, the winters get colder and everything gets more expensive. But we keep going, if not as far, just to stave off the inevitable, which is staying at home.

 

[cbr6fs]

Mr. cbr6fs, I am 68 and I'm painfully aware of what happens after age 50. The trails get steeper and rougher, the summers get hotter, the winters get colder and everything gets more expensive. But we keep going, if not as far, just to stave off the inevitable, which is staying at home.

What can i say mate, getting older is better than the alternative