Controversial way to signal.
- Thread starter BigMonster
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But some people would say you were unprepared and should have had the forethought to carry water for the appropriate conditions. Or simply not gone ahead.
Yes you right. you can slip and fall anywhere. But its a matter of judgement and/or risk which decides your actions. Most at risk are those who are not fit enough in the first place who twist their ankles. I've never come across a twisted ankle that can't be walked on after a rest and/or ICE.
I don't really understand why you would get 'caught out' in a blizzard without the right equipment anyway. You should not be there without the right equipment surely?
A comparison might be advising someone that on a long journey they take a good radio or phone if they break down or run out of gas so they can call for help. Much better to be prepared so that you don't have breakdowns in the first place - car in good condition, plenty of fuel and so on. Also know what to do if you do break down, then you are even less likely to need outside help.
I'm sure there are places in the UK where you can become imbolised and may need outside help.
All I say is that the biggest risk is being unprepared for these situations before you go.
So walk round risky broken ground and don't go where you might be out of your depth in the first place.
My father in advising me may years ago when I first went on a long canoe trip down one of our remoter rivers said that no indian ever died on a portage. I couldn't swim then. We never used PFDs but if we thought the water was going to be too difficult for us, we always portaged.
For me walking and bushcraft are the same things.
People like Bear Grylls wouldn't last five minutes up in the northern bush. He takes so many risks in the first place he would soon die on his own.
a) Its against most laws in most countries
b) How would a pilot know you are in distress and not one of the idiots using them?
c) How many aircraft would be flying in or near mountains? We were in the English Lake District the other day and I didn't see any
d) The lasers seem to work best in the dark. How would a pilot in a commercial aircraft flying at 20,000ft or similiar be able to identify your location in the dark elven if he/she could see your laser??
You mention fires for attracting attention. Have you any examples where this has successfully worked in the UK?
You mention signalling mirrors. As they only work in the sun,have you any idea of amount of time you'd be able to use one in the UK? Any examples where someone has actually used one successfully?
I only mention it because neither would work back home and I can't see their use much here either.
Fundamentally flawed thinking there Joe.
I've never come across anyone that's died from aids, malaria or Ebola it doesn't mean that people aren't dieing of them though.
You start off by saying
Then say
How do you prepare for possibly falling over anywhere?
You say
You understand that there are differences in the level of injury an ankle can sustain right?
We are not talking about stumbling on a high street here, we are talking about hiking outdoors on very rough terrain with extreme inclines in many places.
Sure there is a risk of injury doing our outdoors activities, but there there is a risk in most things things we do.
Even if we do nothing we risk heart disease by not exercising.
If being monumentally cautious works for so far then i'm happy you've had good luck so far.
But please don't judge those of us that enjoy life to the full even if that means hiking on "risky broken ground"
One of the problems of the wild areas of our country being so near to settled areas is that they are so easy to access for the foolish and unprepared.
If you are climbing up loose scree, there ain't necessarily anywhere to walk around unless you fancy a vertical drop on one side or an even more dangerous climb on the other. You can't go hillwalking without some risk. Not everyone who slips or falls is either unprepared or inexperienced.
I don't go to the woods to take risks but I do realize that many people in fact do things for the thrill that are risky. It might be that for some people, they take fewer precautions because there is more risk or thrill. I'm not saying that the things I do are risk free, because they aren't, only that's not why I do them. Sometimes I ask myself why I do them after all but that's beside the point.
It sounds like signaling is more problematic than controversial.
It sounds like signaling is more problematic than controversial.
I'm sorry you think I was judging you. I was not intending to.
I guess the main differences between our approach and yours is that if we have an accident we are unlikely to get help. We often work several days travel from the nearest other indians or town, whereas in this country help is always close by.
Just a bit of background information. The remoteness comments about being only a few miles from... in the UK. That has it's origins from the OS who calculated the furthest distance you can get from signs of human existence is 7 miles. It is a place in Scotland and it's 7 miles from a remote road IIRC. I'm guessing at this point you're more than 7 miles from any human assistance though. I reckon it's right being worked out by OS.
It's ridiculous the idea of not going over rocky ground in case you have an accident. I think we all go out into the hills for an experience. Anywhere you can.have an accident but not going into an area because it's rocky or away from a road or you might have an increased risk limits the experience to walking in your local town park. Risks are there manage them but don't let the fear of them stop you getting out there.
I remember one winter I was walking round Grasmere. I was walking up Loughrigg from the road (the back road not the main Ambleside to Keswick road). I saw an ambulance called for someone on the path up Loughrigg who'd slipped and had a suspected broken leg have to.stop earlier for a guy who had slipped on the road just before they got there. He did have a broken leg. Another ambulance had to be called for the original.call out. Basically it was no safer on the road than the hills at times.
IMHO if fear of accidents means you restrict where you go or makes you feel you need to carry so much gear for every possible scenario then you've lost it. The first stops your enjoyment by limiting where you go. The second makes getting around a chore with the weight and can increase your chances of accidents.
Personally I like fast and light approach. Makes me more nimble, faster and with a more heads up attitude. I believe that's safer.
I remember one winter I was walking round Grasmere. I was walking up Loughrigg from the road (the back road not the main Ambleside to Keswick road). I saw an ambulance called for someone on the path up Loughrigg who'd slipped and had a suspected broken leg have to.stop earlier for a guy who had slipped on the road just before they got there. He did have a broken leg. Another ambulance had to be called for the original.call out. Basically it was no safer on the road than the hills at times.
IMHO if fear of accidents means you restrict where you go or makes you feel you need to carry so much gear for every possible scenario then you've lost it. The first stops your enjoyment by limiting where you go. The second makes getting around a chore with the weight and can increase your chances of accidents.
Personally I like fast and light approach. Makes me more nimble, faster and with a more heads up attitude. I believe that's safer.
Good judgement is based on experience.
Experience comes from bad judgement....
When I was in my teens there was very little available info, I had no mentors and was self taught from what books I could find in English while living in Belgium (computers still used punchcards and the interweb was not dreamed of) the available info on my route emphasised the dangers of hypothermia and bogs with no mention of water shortages. Reliable springs were all dried up. You do your best with what info you can gather. I carried water - but not enough. I begged water off dog walkers at a road crossing - but it was not enough. I left my route to find water - and it was not enough. I was alone as I had no friends interested in spending a summer in a land we did not live in (but called "home") when cheaper holidays in the sun could be had with parents paying. I carried the recommended safety kit and listened to local advice. It was not enough to avoid the problem - but it was enough to save my life!
I learned the hard way.
I am now a holder of my ML (summer), have lead expeds around the world and am a level 4 canoe coach.
I now teach from my experiences.
Experience comes from bad judgement....
When I was in my teens there was very little available info, I had no mentors and was self taught from what books I could find in English while living in Belgium (computers still used punchcards and the interweb was not dreamed of) the available info on my route emphasised the dangers of hypothermia and bogs with no mention of water shortages. Reliable springs were all dried up. You do your best with what info you can gather. I carried water - but not enough. I begged water off dog walkers at a road crossing - but it was not enough. I left my route to find water - and it was not enough. I was alone as I had no friends interested in spending a summer in a land we did not live in (but called "home") when cheaper holidays in the sun could be had with parents paying. I carried the recommended safety kit and listened to local advice. It was not enough to avoid the problem - but it was enough to save my life!
I learned the hard way.
I am now a holder of my ML (summer), have lead expeds around the world and am a level 4 canoe coach.
I now teach from my experiences.
Absolutely. IF! If you're young enough, fit enough, and experienced enough.
But I think the point is that many get into trouble by taking on terrain that's beyond their abilities. Even then, it's not necessarily a bad thing; that's how we expand our abilities. Still, there is the inescapable conclusion that many of the incidents could have been avoided by using better judgment regarding our abilities.
Regarding the "fast and light" approach, it's ironic that as we age, we need to carry more. My meds and testing supplies alone take up a good bit of space. The converse is that even though we now need to carry more, we're less fit to do so.
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Very much the case as I get closer and closer to Sixty. (59 this week) Oh to be young and foolish again.
Your assertion that risk increases with remoteness of a location does not sing true though.
One of my friends died when i was young, he somehow rode his motorbike off the road and into a ditch.
The doctors say he didn't die from the crash but from exposure.
He was found 2 meters from a extremely busy single lane carriageway (Fosse Way for those in the UK).
Unfortunately if he shouted non of the traffic could hear him and there were no pedestrians.
People die in their houses daily surrounded by other people.
e could fall down the stairs and crack our necks, have a heart attack while our loved ones are up in bed and they not realise.
We don't know when or where death or injury will come from and in what guise, so it seems pretty pointless restricting things we love to do.
If we take a few precautions then we can reduce these risks dramatically.
Leave a itinerary and route with someone we trust and our expected return time.
Train and practice in navigation, then have a map and compass with us
Have a basic FAK kit with the appropriate training
Have a few basic emergency items like a emergency bivvy bag
Analyse the risk in your area at the time of year you are going and pack accordingly (in Greece in summer this means plenty of water, in other areas it might mean a extra pair of gloves, socks, hat and a warm mid layer like say a fleece or down jacket)
Carry something to signal with, a whistle and torch are best IMO
We are not talking thousands of dollars, euros or pounds here, it's a few basic things.
Having a expected route and return time as a back up weighs and costs nothing
A map and compass cost a few quid, the knowledge of how to use them costs and weighs nothing
My FAK is just over 200g and cost under 10 quid to kit out
Analysing the risk in the area you intend to be costs and weighs nothing
A decent light weight down jacket is expensive but a fleece jacket of thick jumper will be find for all but the worst UK weather
Torch and whistles are cheap and weigh very little.
I think that if all those lists are followed then unless yo die instantly from say a fall it's highly unlikely you'll die on a mountainside or wood in the UK.
But even if you do, at least your family have a body to bury, might sounds a bit heartless but it DOES matter.
First of all, with a daughter who's an airline pilot, and another daughter who's a flight attendant with Virgin Atlantic, let me tell you that if I ever came across anyone pointing a laser at an aircraft (landing or taking off appears to be the most common time) I would beat them so badly a FAK wouldn't be enough.... DON'T DO IT. You could end up killing hundreds of people, or even - ironically - the SAR aircraft out looking for you.
Secondly, of course the UK isn't the Canadian etc wilderness, but a nasty fall (or a mishap with an edged tool that us bushcrafters are so fond of!) even within a mile of a road can leave one incapacitated and unable to walk/crawl to safety. Hypothermia is still a threat in our moderate climate, exacerbated by getting wet.
Lastly, we are human - we all do silly things, or are just unlucky, that have the potential to leave us in a world of hurt. I defy anyone on this board to deny that there hasn't been at least one occasion where you thought "oops - that could have been really nasty!" But that doesn't stop us going out, does it? A basic safety kit including a whistle, torch, phone, lighter, basic FAK and emergency blanket/bivvy would seem to be common sense to me. Sure it won't cover all eventualities, but it's a lot better than nothing.
Secondly, of course the UK isn't the Canadian etc wilderness, but a nasty fall (or a mishap with an edged tool that us bushcrafters are so fond of!) even within a mile of a road can leave one incapacitated and unable to walk/crawl to safety. Hypothermia is still a threat in our moderate climate, exacerbated by getting wet.
Lastly, we are human - we all do silly things, or are just unlucky, that have the potential to leave us in a world of hurt. I defy anyone on this board to deny that there hasn't been at least one occasion where you thought "oops - that could have been really nasty!" But that doesn't stop us going out, does it? A basic safety kit including a whistle, torch, phone, lighter, basic FAK and emergency blanket/bivvy would seem to be common sense to me. Sure it won't cover all eventualities, but it's a lot better than nothing.
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OK, I'll give you a personal example.
At times in my life I've been easily fit enough to run up and back down Ben Nevis in an afternoon. I've done it. For the last few years I've not been anywhere near that level, but still reasonably fit, active and with no relevant health problems. A lot of the places I walk are away from people (as much as one can find in England even if you can still see houses from the hilltop) because that's part of the reason I like getting outdoors. They also tend to be hilly, rocky, and with very rough and undulating ground; that's why there aren't many people there. Nothing dangerous to anyone with even a minimal level of fitness though.
A few years ago I was casually trotting along at low speed. I stepped on the edge of a small depression and heard a sound like kicking a football, hard, or a balloon bursting, and I fell forwards. I thought I had burst an air bag in the sole of my running boots (didn't know they had air bags, in fact they didn't). Picking myself up mid-stride, as you do, I tried to continue but just went down again, face first, on the next step. As I hit the deck, I realised was wrong.
I had completely ruptured my right Achilles tendon. The calf muscle had retracted up to my knee and my foot was effectively disconnected at the back. Walking was a little tricky!
Now, if the weather had been poor, and I had been in a (now) dodgy place without the ability to walk properly, I would have been in a 'need rescue now' situation. I don't believe in asking for help really, if I could possibly get myself out I would try, that's just my nature. That injury though could have made getting out unlikely without falling again and probably being injured more. Not good!
The injury was not because I had done anything unusual or ill-advised, and really could not have been foreseen short of having weekly MRI scans of my whole body looking for potential defects. It just happened. Things do.
Now, as it actually happened, I was in a hospital car park at the time. Talk about good fortune! (Not that good, I was running in a hospital car park for a reason of course). It could have happened on a hillside though, very easily, and probably would have given that the tendon was just waiting to snap. As it was I just checked myself in after dealing with other matters first, with lots of hopping on one leg until I nicked someone's crutch.
I thought I should mention that preparation in the way of first aid kits and signaling devices does not reduce the risk of injury on the trail any more than having insurance reduces your chances of being in an auto collision. But those things do give you something to work with should something befall you. There are ways to reduce risk but a first aid kit isn't one of them.
Has anyone here ever actually responded to a distress signal?
Has anyone here ever actually responded to a distress signal?