Changes to the BCB Crusader Cup?

[kard133]

I was talking to Jasper at Strikeforce Supplies on Thursday and he mentioned that he though the last batch of BCB Crusader cups he got in didn't the Osprey/Nato bottle properly. He showed me a cup date stamped 2011 and a bottle dated 2010, as well as a bottle dated 2008 and he was right, the bottle didn't fit. By not fitting I mean it did not touch the bottom of the cup, and formed a tight seal around the bottle. When I got home I checked mine, the cup is dated 2009 and my bottle 2010, and the bottle is slightly lose and hits the bottom when inserted. Can any one else check to see what their fit is like, and the date on the cup?

On a side note, I recently got a Nalgene Oasis 1qt Canteen and it fits the cup ( at least the 2009 one) as well as the osprey, so if your looking for an alternative to the Osprey due to the plastic taste (after 48 hours of testing there is only a very faint plastic taste, virtually unnoticeable compared to the Osprey) or because you prefer semi transparent plastics, there you go.

 

[JonathanD]

I've got a 1996, 97, 99, 2000, 2003, 2005, 2007, 2009 and 2011. They are all exactly the same in 2003, 2005, 2007 and 2011 cups. They fit perfectly after use though as the steel expands.

 

[kard133]

Thanks, so it may be that upon heating they fit, or just that batch he has is defective. You sure have a lot of mugs

 

[JonathanD]

Thanks, so it may be that upon heating they fit, or just that batch he has is defective. You sure have a lot of mugs

My missus and the little one use them too, plus I always buy a spare when I go on exped. The mug and bottles are one of my main and most important bits of kit.

Actually, this year was the first time I received a faulty bottle with dodgy molding. It also leaked. Osprey replaced it with a perfect one though.

 

[Aussiepom]

I believe Osprey's manufacturing process is, or was, 'out of control' (a phrase used in the industry, not just a dramatic comment made up by myself.)

I don't have my mugs/bottles in front of me, so I may get the dates wrong, but the following is a rough guide:

I have 3 mugs, by 2 different manufacturers, both suppliers to the MOD. 1 is BCB, I don't recall the other. They are all from around the 2005/6 period. I have an Osprey bottle from the same period and it fits all 3 perfectly - just a slight bit of friction, enough so that you can pick the bottle up and the mug will not slide off of it.

Mid last year I purchased a new Osprey bottle, dated 2010 or 2011. It is too small for all 3 mugs and rattles about in them. I posted a thread at the time querying whether I had purchased a cheap knock-off by mistake, but after further investigation I believe it is a genuine Osprey.

I spoke to the staff at Woodlore and they told me they were aware of the problem and in turn they had spoken to their suppliers, both Osprey & BCB. Both were denying that they had any problem with their manufacturing processes. So, at best, Osprey are incorrect, since it is plain that the size of their bottles has changed. At worst, they are aware, but are trying to cover things up.

Of course, one further complication could be that BCB's manufacturing process has also drifted 'out of control' at around the same time, but I don't have a recent version of their mug to try on an older bottle.

kard133 mentions that Strikeforces' bottle is too tight rather than too loose. This could be due to either BCB's mugs now being smaller, or due to Osprey having tried to fix their process and over compensated. Again, trying an older bottle with a newer mug might provide an answer.

I notice that JonathanD's list doesn't mention a 2010 bottle. Maybe this is the rogue year for Osprey's bottles and they have corrected the problem now?

 

[garethw]

Hi there
Just to add to the data/info....I have 2 Osprey bottles dated 2011 and a BCB cup dated 2009. They all fit together perfectly.
Regards
Gareth

 

[JonathanD]

I believe Osprey's manufacturing process is, or was, 'out of control' (a phrase used in the industry, not just a dramatic comment made up by myself.)

I don't have my mugs/bottles in front of me, so I may get the dates wrong, but the following is a rough guide:

I have 3 mugs, by 2 different manufacturers, both suppliers to the MOD. 1 is BCB, I don't recall the other. They are all from around the 2005/6 period. I have an Osprey bottle from the same period and it fits all 3 perfectly - just a slight bit of friction, enough so that you can pick the bottle up and the mug will not slide off of it.

Mid last year I purchased a new Osprey bottle, dated 2010 or 2011. It is too small for all 3 mugs and rattles about in them. I posted a thread at the time querying whether I had purchased a cheap knock-off by mistake, but after further investigation I believe it is a genuine Osprey.

I spoke to the staff at Woodlore and they told me they were aware of the problem and in turn they had spoken to their suppliers, both Osprey & BCB. Both were denying that they had any problem with their manufacturing processes. So, at best, Osprey are incorrect, since it is plain that the size of their bottles has changed. At worst, they are aware, but are trying to cover things up.

Of course, one further complication could be that BCB's manufacturing process has also drifted 'out of control' at around the same time, but I don't have a recent version of their mug to try on an older bottle.

kard133 mentions that Strikeforces' bottle is too tight rather than too loose. This could be due to either BCB's mugs now being smaller, or due to Osprey having tried to fix their process and over compensated. Again, trying an older bottle with a newer mug might provide an answer.

I notice that JonathanD's list doesn't mention a 2010 bottle. Maybe this is the rogue year for Osprey's bottles and they have corrected the problem now?

All of the copies are small. Some are so good you can't tell the difference, other than that they are too small. It is impossible the way Ospreys bottles are manufactured to produce a perfect but smaller bottle, it would be deformed badly. So what you had must have been a knockoff. Sometimes you may find a genuine Osprey stockist that has a fake in its inventory due to unscrupulous people returning the fakes after buying a genuine one off them. That exact thing has happened to me at a very high profile and trusted stockist.

 

[Aussiepom]

That's a possibility Jonathan. I certainly can't tell the difference between the 2 that I have. Even the markings left from the manufacturing process are the same and the rigidity of the bottles is similar as well. However, that still wouldn't account for the fact that the staff at Woodlore reported the mis-match in sizing as a known problem. A few 'returned fakes' in their inventory wouldn't be enough to register in the larger scheme of things.

I checked dates on mine as well: 2 BCB cups dated 2006, 1 by Autofan Ltd (I think?) dated 2003 and 2 Osprey bottles; 1 dated 2005 and 1 dated 2010. The 2005 bottle fits all the mugs, the 2010 bottle fits none of them.

I'm hoping that there was a manufacturing fault, manifesting itself on bottles dated 2010, and it has now been fixed, albeit that there may still be rogue bottles on some supplier's shelves. Need more information to be certain.

 

[JonathanD]

If they have been hit with one swap and it had been reported upon resale, then that would have been a 'known problem'. I certainly reported mine and sent it back.

Remember that the fakes are recast from originals, and those casts would shrink after taking the cast, and possibly shrink again when making the master in metal. That is why you would still find similar tooling marks as the fakes are cast from an original Osprey. It's only due to the recasting process that they become smaller.

Osprey make their bottles using an injection mold and rotocast using a master. It's impossible using that method of manufacture for them to accidently make a smaller one. They would have to have a smaller mold to do that. And as they use the same masters year after year and just change the date blank, the retooling would cost thousands to change, and they obviously wouldn't spend that kind of money on a smaller capacity bottle that doesn't fit the agreed accessories or original MOD supply spec of a 1ltr capacity. It wouldn't make any sense commercially or financially for them to do that.

In short, your smaller bottle is a fake. Good, but obviously a fake if it is a good copy but smaller. They don't shrink perfectly in dimension after coming from the mold, they have to be made that way and only the counterfeits are because of the recasting process.

Get in contact with Osprey and they will tell you without a shadow of a doubt that if it is smaller, it is fake.

 

[Aussiepom]

OK, what you describe makes sense as far as my 'too small' bottle is concerned. It's certainly more information than Woodlore were able to pass on to me when they said they were investigating the matter and makes me think I should retract my comment about Osprey's "out of control" process.

It just seems to make it all a bit of a gamble when ordering a new one. Ho hum.

 

[greenwood]

I will check mine tonight

 

[kard133]

I have heard back from Jasper, [FONT=verdana, helvetica, sans-serif]apparently at some point BCB fell out with the manufacturer of the original mugs.

The bottles come to us direct from Osprey, and the metal mugs from BCB and so are definately genuine...after nearly 20 years in the business I know the real stuff from the copies, lol!
[/FONT]I also found out that BCB fell out with the company who manufactured the mugs originally for them, and then no longer had the mould as such to give to their replacement manufacturer...this could account for the earlier ones not being identical to the later ones!!
Jasper[FONT=verdana, helvetica, sans-serif]

My mug came from Lakeland Bushcraft (Lurch on this site), and the bottle from Strikeforce, and they have a loose fit where you can pick up the bottle without lifting the mug.
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