Carrying pocket tools ‘just in case’

chewie

Tenderfoot
Jan 16, 2005
67
6
England
I’d like to suggest another response to this thread discussing UK Points and Blades legislation. Many forum members have expressed a desire to carry pocket tools ‘just in case’ they need them, and are concerned that they will fall foul of the law. So, what items are legal within UK legislation, and are they any good?

To summarise the relevant provisions, and save people from reading the rather large legal thread if they don’t want to, the carriage in public of any of the following will always be illegal:
• Any bladed or pointed article may if the person having it with them has criminal intent – i.e. to use the item as a weapon, or in various crimes [burglary, theft, criminal damage etc.]
• Any banned knife [flick knife, switchblade, gravity knife, push dagger, balisong, disguised or stealth knife]

The carriage of any other bladed or pointed article is illegal unless it is part of a religious requirement [e.g. Sikh Kirpan], part of a national dress [e.g. Scottish Sgian Dubh], for use at work [anything from a carpet fitter’s Stanley knife to a BASIC doctor’s scalpel], with specific lawful authority [e.g. military, police officers], or with reasonable excuse.

For reasonable excuse, read ‘a justifiable, provable and demonstrable reason for having the item in question in their possession at the specific time and location in question.’ That is my wording, not the law, but the law specifically does state that in questions of ‘reasonable excuse’ the burden of proof lies with the person carrying the item, not for the police to prove they did not have such a reason. The burden of proof for ‘reasonable excuse’ is ‘balance of probabilities’, and this is the test that the police [and if they aren’t happy, the CPS and eventually a court] will apply. Context is everything, and proving your genuine reason to a police officer on the street is infinitely preferable to having to do so back at the police station, or in court. A bushcraft knife well-wrapped in the bottom of a rucksack with the rest of your camp gear, either on the way to, or from, or at a campsite, should not cause any problems at all. That same knife in a central London bar is going to cause its owner significant problems.

The law recognises that many people want to carry a pocket knife or tool, and section 139 Criminal Justice Act 1988 specifies that which may be carried legally without reason or qualification – a folding pocket knife, the blade of which has a cutting edge that does not exceed 3 inches [76 mm]. Caselaw has refined this definition to exclude locking blades, so a pocket knife with a blade under 3 inches will still require ‘reasonable excuse’ if the blades lock.

You can’t take anything sharp airside at an airport – hold luggage only. Schools have their own specific anti-knife legislation and carriage of knives at schools is best avoided. Finally, any private premises can require search as a condition of entry, and refuse access to someone if they don’t like something they’re carrying. The London Eye and London Underground are two such premises that have required search on entry in the past, along with most nightclubs and football grounds.


So, please suggest and/or review your UK-legal, s139 CJA88-compliant, sub-3”, non-locking pocket knives and tools here…… Thanks!

I’ll start with a few that I’m acquainted with.

s139ok2.jpg


When up town, and without the need to chop trees up, I have a soft spot for the Leatherman Squirt P4 and/or Victorinox Rambler. No chance of upsetting the most inner-city of police officers with either of these on the key-ring, and they can comfortably perform most urban tasks without weighing my trouser pockets down.

Pocket-knife wise, I have a soft spot for the ubiquitous Swiss Army knife, for many reasons – functionality, low cost, and public perception - everyone knows that Swiss Army knives are for scouts / horses’ hooves, not unpleasantness. I like the Farmer [aluminium scales] and the Huntsman [good balance of functionality against weight and bulk.] The saw on either is excellent.

Pocket tool wise, the Leatherman Kick has full-size pliers and s139-legal blades. The Leatherman Juice models have smaller pliers, but I find them more ergonomically and aesthetically-pleasing, with the CS4 having a great balance between functions and bulk.

Spyderco make two specifically UK-legal knives, the Pride and the UK Pocket Knife. The UKPK is very nice, but its appearance is more tactical than bushcraft, and is likely to pique the curiosity of most police and non-knife people, in my personal opinion. The UK Pride is less so, but I sometimes wonder pessimistically if one-handed openers might gain the attention of legislators at some stage.

Hopefully, a lot of suitable alternatives will get identified.
 

Mr_Yarrow

Forager
May 16, 2005
156
0
46
UK, Hertfordshire
Brilliant informative post chewie.

Might be an idea to see if the chaps on BB want it on there as well in their law section?

One question though, in this para;

chewie said:
The law recognises that many people want to carry a pocket knife or tool, and allows one category of such item to be carried legally without reason or qualification – a folding pocket knife, the blade of which has a cutting edge that does not exceed 3 inches [76 mm]. Caselaw has refined this definition to exclude locking blades, so a pocket knife with a blade under 3 inches will still require ‘reasonable excuse’ if the blades lock

Can I ask what you/the law means by 'one category'? Does it mean if I have more than one section 139 compliant article on me then I will need good reason :confused:

Ta
 

BorderReiver

Full Member
Mar 31, 2004
2,693
16
Norfolk U.K.
Mr_Yarrow said:
Brilliant informative post chewie.

Might be an idea to see if the chaps on BB want it on there as well in their law section?

One question though, in this para;



Can I ask what you/the law means by 'one category'? Does it mean if I have more than one section 139 compliant article on me then I will need good reason :confused:

Ta

Me too.I can't remember seeing any numbers stated in 139 :confused:
 

chewie

Tenderfoot
Jan 16, 2005
67
6
England
No, there is no limit on numbers, I meant the sole kind of bladed instrument that you can carry is the s139-compliant folding pocket knife.... standby for edit to remove ambiguity.
 

Mr_Yarrow

Forager
May 16, 2005
156
0
46
UK, Hertfordshire
BorderReiver said:
Me too.I can't remember seeing any numbers stated in 139 :confused:

Hi BR,

This was eluded too on BB a little while ago by I think Ross in the law section. Basically, a LEO would have reasonable grounds to think you may be upto something 'dodgy' if you have more than one S139 article on you. If you explain it then ok, but that then means tht you DO need a 'reasonable reason', when you shouldnt have to - if that makes sense :confused: ;)

I cant follow it up currently on BB :eek: , so I thought this would be a good place to ask, especially as its someone elses reading of it and the fresh pair of eyes syndrome etc from chewie :)

Rgds
 

Mr_Yarrow

Forager
May 16, 2005
156
0
46
UK, Hertfordshire
Ok, I need to post faster, quit dawdling and stop imagining things :lmao:

Chewie - what are your thoughts on multiple carry anyway (you are/have been an LEO havent you?
 

chewie

Tenderfoot
Jan 16, 2005
67
6
England
There are no legal limits on the number of items you carry in law - s139 merely states that the offence does not apply if the item(s) is/are compliant.

It's all about perception and context - a swiss army knife and a multi-tool are very different things, but three different knives in three different pockets may be seen as a bit odd, especially in an urban area. I would choose to minimise the amount of time spent getting checked out, were I to be in such a situation, but if an item complies, it isn't an offence under s139.
 

sam_acw

Native
Sep 2, 2005
1,081
10
42
Tyneside
There was a letter in shooting times about a game keeper who was arrested for possessing a knife (a locking buck iirc) whilst in his car on the way home from work.

I won't go into the all details as I don't have the magazine to hand but there were 2 noteworthy factors.

Firstly the police returned an opinel to him after he was released seeing no problem with it.

Secondly they offered a choice between being charged and a caution, the man in question choosing the latter.

The point I'm trying to make is that the police officer's perception of the knife is just as important as the law. If they view the knife as looking like an offensive weapon then they will react accordingly. If they see it as a traditional type of penknife or SAK they are more likely to accept it.
 

gregorach

Bushcrafter (boy, I've got a lot to say!)
Sep 15, 2005
3,723
29
51
Edinburgh
Mr_Yarrow said:
Hi BR,

This was eluded too on BB a little while ago by I think Ross in the law section. Basically, a LEO would have reasonable grounds to think you may be upto something 'dodgy' if you have more than one S139 article on you. If you explain it then ok, but that then means tht you DO need a 'reasonable reason', when you shouldnt have to - if that makes sense :confused: ;)

I suspect that comes back to the Offensive Weapons Act - ie that any article, no matter how innocuous, could be grounds for arrest if a officer suspects criminal intent. Being heavily tooled up, even with items that conform to s139, could be regarded as sufficiently suspicious to bring this into play. Again, it comes back to context and the judgement of the officer concerned.

Just my 2p... I am not a lawyer, policer officer, expert, etc, etc... ;)
 

chewie

Tenderfoot
Jan 16, 2005
67
6
England
sam_acw said:
There was a letter in shooting times about a game keeper who was arrested for possessing a knife (a locking buck iirc) whilst in his car on the way home from work.

Locking buck = does not comply with s139 CJA88.

This is all covered in the legal thread.
 

gregorach

Bushcrafter (boy, I've got a lot to say!)
Sep 15, 2005
3,723
29
51
Edinburgh
Sorry bro... ;)

Personally, I favour a cheap little stockman - some stainless Chinese p.o.s. off eBay. Not exactly a multitool... But its three blades (clip point, sheepsfoot and spey) make it fairly versatile, it looks completely innocuous, and I don't care if I lose it.
 

chewie

Tenderfoot
Jan 16, 2005
67
6
England
gregorach said:
... fairly versatile, it looks completely innocuous, and I don't care if I lose it.

That's a sensible approach! :D

I don't mind giving a personal opinion on the legal stuff, but I was hoping to start a thread pointing me in the direction of potential new acquisitions! :eek:
 

bogflogger

Nomad
Nov 22, 2005
355
18
65
london
My EDC for around London is:

On my keyring:

1. A Leatherman Squirt P4. (Very useful little tool.)
2. A Victorinox Manager. (for the pen- surprisingly useful.)
3. Sliver Gripper Tweezers.
4. Firesteel. 5mm.
5. Photon Freedom Microlight.

In my Pocket/ Waist pouch/ Daysack:

1. Victorinox Huntsman. (with Luminous Yellow "Glow in the Dark" Scales!)
2. Queen Cutlery Canoe. (for heavy cutting tasks that need a proper knife)
3. SOG Paratool.

All Chosen to be as "Non-Tactical" Looking as possible, and all S.139 Legal.

This lot is "Put in Context" with additional items, such as a CPR kit and a First Aid Kit, a small Repairs/Spares Kit and an Inova X1 Torch, plus a VB16 Torch that runs on CR123 Batterys for Serious Lighting.

I Will not get into the Dominion on Tottenham Court Road with this lot, but I do not have Any wish to go there Anyway! :D

The further away from the Concrete Jungle I get, the more likely it is that I will also be carrying a Locking Folder and/or a Fixed Blade Bushcraft Knife (with appropriate Bushcraft/ Mountaineering/ Fishing Equipment for "Context").
 

sam_acw

Native
Sep 2, 2005
1,081
10
42
Tyneside
I wasn't claiming that the buck was a legal edc. The issue is that you would have thought that for a game keeper to have a lock knife in his possesion on his way home from work would be quite evidently just cause.
I think it is useful to have legal threads here still for several reasons.
Firstly although the reasons for carrying thread is very good it is huge!
Secondly the legal aspect of a knife can be an important factor in choosing it. Indeed Chewie's post illustrates several potential knives which should not fall foul of the law.
 

chewie

Tenderfoot
Jan 16, 2005
67
6
England
With regards to gamekeepers getting arrested and what-have-you, I think for specific cases the smart reply will always be 'don't know, wasn't there.'

Without both sides of a story it would be easy to jump to incorrect conclusions.
 

Andy

Native
Dec 31, 2003
1,867
11
38
sheffield
www.freewebs.com
couple of legal EDC knives

spyderco pride (small and I really don't like it but others do)
spyderco UK penknife (though legal looks very scary)
most sheffield pocket knives (look nice but the new ones always seem to come blunt)
william henry legacy, I'm waiting for one but the look very nice. They are very light and have ZDP blades with carbon fiber handles, the most high tech
 

Zammo

Settler
Jul 29, 2006
927
2
48
London
Whats the difference between a Leatherman Squirt and an illegal Butterfly knife? They both have handles that incase the blade and unwrap to form the handle.

Also I wonder how the law would stand if you then used a pocket kinfe to defend yourself if mugged?
 

leon-1

Full Member
Zammo, the difference is, one can be opened to instantly expose a blade with one hand, it is also on the list of offensive weapons. The blade once exposed and the handles in hand is effectively fixed.

The other (leatherman), can be opened one handed to reveal a set of pliers.
 

Minotaur

Native
Apr 27, 2005
1,624
246
Birmingham
sam_acw said:
There was a letter in shooting times about a game keeper who was arrested for possessing a knife (a locking buck iirc) whilst in his car on the way home from work.

I won't go into the all details as I don't have the magazine to hand but there were 2 noteworthy factors.

Firstly the police returned an opinel to him after he was released seeing no problem with it.

Secondly they offered a choice between being charged and a caution, the man in question choosing the latter.

The point I'm trying to make is that the police officer's perception of the knife is just as important as the law. If they view the knife as looking like an offensive weapon then they will react accordingly. If they see it as a traditional type of penknife or SAK they are more likely to accept it.


Just goes to show you what a lack of knowledge will do. At what point was this gentleman ever breaking the current knife laws? What he did was bolster his local police's crime figures. Whatever you carry you have to accept the fact that if you are stopped and searched that you could end up in court, defending that choice.
 

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