Canvas Berghaus Crusader
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i bought his karrimor last night, if you go to completed listings you'll see it got it for £35 ish. was tempted by the berghaus bergens but found another tonight that i got for £30 delivered
gonna try them both and see which gets kept for a lake district visit in march then the other will be on back on ebay, i'm waiting on an od sting but delivery could be three weeks and its too close to the planned trip to risk not having a larger pack so went for these as options in the short term.
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the karrimor was an s85, and the berghaus was listed as a crusader 3 so hopefully this means size three not just some random typo!
can't wait to have a play around with them when they arrive!
johnboy, what is that you prefer about the karrimor? the sting has some good reviews your own being the most in depth and useful one here, does it not benefit from better technology and materials over the karrimor? you seem to be pretty s*** hot on the topic and your opinion is valued.
was dithering between the sting and the salient but felt the sting had better features.
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Hi,
I dont know If I'm **** hot on the subject. I've just used a lot of rucksacks..
Any how Yes I prefer a Karrimor with a SA backsystem to the Sting If I'm in need of a large capacity Bergen ( 70 L +)
The things I dont like about the Sting and these are in the review thread IIRC are:
1. The belt buckle is a big fastex clip the Bergbuckle and the 'paddle' style Karrimor clip that your Jaguar will have are by far and away the best waist closure systems ever IMHO you can pull em really tight the are a sinch to adjust and undo really easily under load.
2. The Sting has a really miserly snow collar on the main sack... It's woefull again your jaguar and most berghaus bergens have a decent snow collar this keeps you kit dry and protected
3. The lid pocket shape on the Sting I just dont get on with.
My feeling is the Sting is really a competitor to the Sabre 45 both have main compartments in the 45 55 ltr region and both can take PLCE style side pouches. My view is the Sting is a better Bergen than a Sabre 45 ( and I have both so I can make the comparison) as the back length is adjustable. If you're going to be carrying 65-70 L of kit any real distance in difficult terrain then getting weight distribution between the hips and shoulders is very important.
The Sabre has a fixed back length which belies its roots as a climbing sac if it fits you then fine if it doesnt then it doesnt..
With a Sting you have the ability to adjust the back length to get it to fit correctly....
It's that fact and a bunch of others why I dont really rate the Predator packs made by PRI for use by normal civillian folk...
As far a materials etc... Mainstream rucksack materials used in packs like the Sting and Jaguar, Sabre, Crusader, Vulcan.. Are pretty much exactly the same. Karrimors attention to detail and construction were second to none. Indeed when you bought some of their old sacs they used to offer a gold Warranty against failures of the material and fixtures.. I sent my old Alpiniste back a few times for repairs and they never quibbled once. Do you get the same service with the Sting??
Technology wise the Sting is not using any really modern technology all of it's features were around in rucksacs as far back as the early-mid 80's
The Jaguar is designed from the outset to be a large load lugger. It has a very well designed back system. Is made out of top quality materials that were the best and really still are. It was assembled by folk who took pride in their jobs and the products they made and finally Karrimor were at the forefront of Outdoor gear manufacture and innovation from 1946 until the late 1990's they really knew what they were doing when it came to rucksacks.
So for all of those reasons I say for a large capacity rucksack the Jaguar S85 you have is better then the Sting IMHO.
I'd say the Sting is a good 55 ltr rucksack that is ok to use up to 75 L ( with the weight that entails) But is happyest at 55L
HTH
John
thanks for that reply johnboy, good details and appreciate the time spent on it.
i suspect, as long as its in good order i may have had a bargain. hopefully on the crusader as well as the karrimor! i'll post some piccies up when they arrive if they are worth it.
i had heard a few little niggles from others as well about the snow collar and opening shape of the sting but will see if/when it arrives, however, if the s85 turns out to be a gem the sting may well get returned. will have to see!
i'm pleased to have got a pack from the respected era of karrimors past, the respect from everyone about the quality of this period of production speaks volumes!
thanks again for the reply, not wishing to hijak the thread too much....i'm a tad confused with the family of crusader type packs, i understand the army bergen grew from a largely poached design from berghaus bergens, but where do they all fit in timeline or developement wise? there seem to be a lot of similar packs available at any one time, the ROC, which looks smaller than the others, then a crusader, a centurian and a vulcan. are they all different volumes? or specs and features? side pockets etc etc. and cyclops back system available on just the roc and crusader? is that right? when the cyclops 2 back came in did this only go on the crusader and vulcan? very confused i is!?!?
i suspect, as long as its in good order i may have had a bargain. hopefully on the crusader as well as the karrimor! i'll post some piccies up when they arrive if they are worth it.
i had heard a few little niggles from others as well about the snow collar and opening shape of the sting but will see if/when it arrives, however, if the s85 turns out to be a gem the sting may well get returned. will have to see!
i'm pleased to have got a pack from the respected era of karrimors past, the respect from everyone about the quality of this period of production speaks volumes!
thanks again for the reply, not wishing to hijak the thread too much....i'm a tad confused with the family of crusader type packs, i understand the army bergen grew from a largely poached design from berghaus bergens, but where do they all fit in timeline or developement wise? there seem to be a lot of similar packs available at any one time, the ROC, which looks smaller than the others, then a crusader, a centurian and a vulcan. are they all different volumes? or specs and features? side pockets etc etc. and cyclops back system available on just the roc and crusader? is that right? when the cyclops 2 back came in did this only go on the crusader and vulcan? very confused i is!?!?
It's not a hijack.. The thread is a nostalgic look at some old bergens...
Berghaus's time line is pretty straight forward really.
Firstly you have the Roc which is 75L and about 85 L if you bought the add on Side pockets. The Roc was in Berghaus's product line up for a very long time. As this thread shows it evolved during production and was available in both canvas and nylon and laterly in Cordura. It started it's life as Berghaus's top of the line climbing sack and finished it's life as a military Bergen...
At some point after the Falklands war and I suppose in reaction to the fact that the army was going Bergen mad in Post Falklands mode Berghaus introduced the Crusader Generally available in OG Cordura and DPM cordura the Crusader was a 100L bergen with 80L main compartment and two 10L side pouches. If you were doing any type of infanty work the Crusader was the bergen to have in the 80's
Berghaus also ran the Centurion II (the Centurion I being a canvas frame pack) which was basically a Roc with two fixed side pouches. I was also available in canvas then later in cordura in OG and DPM...
All of these early Berghaus Bergens use waht is known as the Cyclops Back system which was IIRC available in 3 sizes 1 for racing jockeys 2 for normal folk 3 for taller folk... As back systems go it looks quite quaint by todays standards but it was: simple, didn't break, was comfy, you could sort out the BATCO wallet on it and it was comfy to sit on.
About 1989 Berghaus came up with the Cyclops 2 backsystem and launched a new Bergen in the form of the Vulcan. This was pretty much a Crusader with the new back system and a zip in the base so you could get to your sleeping bag without emptying the entire bergen ( that's if you were a rear echlon type with a sleeping bag not a bergen full of OP kit and batts for the 320...) The Vulcan was again 100L
And that's been pretty much the state of play with Berghaus until recently... The Atlas came along and no one took much notice unless you name was Hans...
The Vulcan has had minor mods over the years different buckles etc... As far as PLCE goes well the: Crusader, Roc ,Vulcan were exceptionally popular so much so that the MOD ended up with a copy of the Crusader in the form of the PLCE bergen. I suppose they were on issue from 88 at the earliest till the present day.. The PLCE is 120 L and TBH some of the features are an improvement on the Crusader especially the closure zips on the side pouches. It's on issue in Long back and Short back. So you're supposed to get the version which fits you best but most Infanty types would go for a short back as it carries better when wearing webbing....
Berghaus wise well we now have the new Crusader which looks like a revised Atlas With some molle Webbing thrown in.
Zip wise the Original Crusader and the early Vulcans used a zip that was unique. The Vulcan ammended this to a PLCE compatible Zip to fit in with the issue pouches.
The Side pouches on the new Crusader will not accept the PLCE or old Vulcan pouches... Why I have no idea well I do Berghaus want you to buy their pouch not Webtex or a pair of PLCE ones from the army surplus. For military users this will be a PITA as the PLCE zip is now the standard...
That's about it... All from memory so caveat emptor applies...
HTH
John
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johnboy, top reply, thanks for clearing that up. lots of details there, the developent is facinating.
your rucksack to my untrained eye has the sa back system so going for karrimor as make, model i don't have a clue, its got side pockets and mine doesn't so not a s85, could it be a s75? 75 litres? ish? lol looks good tho, scenery not bad to!
your rucksack to my untrained eye has the sa back system so going for karrimor as make, model i don't have a clue, its got side pockets and mine doesn't so not a s85, could it be a s75? 75 litres? ish? lol looks good tho, scenery not bad to!
i have a lowe alpine strike ex dutch forces, dpm, immaculate condition all the dpm webbing on it looks factory fresh, but the cordura is washed out mega pale.
I don't know mate... Perhaps the German Army doesn't train if it's raining???
They definately havent got Warcop and Sennybridge. Any how take a look at this and tell me it's not perfect....
No Apart from the black maskers on the waist strap.. It's pretty much standard...
The QR buckle is so you can drop the rucksack in a hurry if you need to...
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